Casey Bailey

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0:00 She said, "Your mom put me off." Shedidn't know me particularly well. Shelet me live where she lived and she letme stay there while I got back on myfeet. I was stabbed in my back and in myleg and in my backside. When I got tothe hospital, they told me that the stabwound in my back was was quite close tobeing in my spine. And my friend said tome, "What are you going to be? You'regoing to be a gang member and a doctor?You're going to come out the GP serviceat the end of the day and get yourhoodie on and come out and and hangaround with us? It doesn't make anysense.">> Powerful words.>> If I fight, I lose. Even if I win.Welcome to our lives, our stories withme, Carl Chin. And I'm really pleasedtoday to say that I'm going to be havinga chat with Casey Bailey, writer,

0:45 performer, educator, but there's lotsfor us to discuss. Casey, thank you forjoining me today.>> Thank you for having me, Carl. It's apleasure. We're going to talk about yourwork as a writer, particularly a poet.Uh your educational work and yourperformance work, but let's start withwhere did you grow up? Tell me a bitabout your family background.>> Yeah, so uh I grew up in Nichols inBirmingham. Very proud to be fromNichols in Birmingham. Uh I've got uhfour siblings, so I've got two brothersand two sisters. I'm down near thebottom, but I'm not the youngest. Uh,and yeah, we grew up in uh, CouncilHouse, middle of Birmingham, and uh, Iwas blessed and lucky really to beraised by my mom and my dad in a house

1:27 where there was love and there was careand there was chaos. Um, but it was allgood times.>> Tell me a bit about your mom and dad.>> Uh, so my mom, uh, who's no longer withus, rest her soul. Uh, my mom's Irishlady, uh, called Christine. She was oneof those people whoI was going to say nobody had a bad wordto say about that's a lie cuz I'm sureshe's offended some people in that time.But she helped everyone. Yeah. So whensomebody needed something, they'd showup at our house and uh with the bestwill in the world. My dad's a great man,but they weren't looking for my dad.[laughter]>> They were looking for my mom. Uh andthat could be kind of when I was lateteens, that was 14, 13 year olds showingup because they knew if they had a chat

2:08 with my mom, they give them should givethem a couple of pound. It could bepeople older than my mom who neededsomething for their own kids or fortheir own family.>> Uh, and kind of later in her life, mymom set up a business where she she didprint finishing. So, kind of likefolding and and and packing things. And>> kind of like at the height of that,there were 15 20 women in Nichols whowere pushing trolley up and down theroad with boxes in. They worked for mymom. My mom showed them how to do theirtaxes, how to make sure they weregetting their allowance before they paidmore than they needed to. Uh, she'd havethem working in the house. She'd haveall of us working sometimes. Um, and shekind of she was a center of ourcommunity.>> Um, not just of our family. So, yeah, my

2:52 mom was was a legend. She was an Irishlady who would sometimes cough you inPWA and confuse people say, "Come overto my yard." [laughter]You said that was my mom. But, um, shegrew up in Hanssworth.She grew up around kind of like thetimes of, you know, underground danceall shubs and and blues rave and andthat was her that was where she camefrom. Um, and that was what she knew.>> And I remember like in school holidayssometimes we'd be like a factory beforemy mom started her business and she'd bejust putting pieces of metal togetherall day. And it wasn't, you know, therewas no glamorous work. There was nothingabout it that was going to make her richor anything like that. But she washardworking. and she's dedicated and sheraised us with>> kind of morals and principles that you

3:35 can't shake and and we never we'd neverwant to shake them and and I don't thinkwe could.>> When we look at success too often it'sthrough the prism of middle class peoplesaying you've got to make a lot ofmoney, you've got to be prosperous andthen you cease to be working class ifyou do well. Your mom was a workingasssuccess story>> 100%. And I I'll never forget right it'sa really weird story. So I was teachingin um Great Bar and a woman came in andshe and I'd worked really closely withher daughter and it was parents eveningand then she came and we started talkingjust about her daughter and how she wasgetting on and she says, "Oh, mydaughter said you're from Nichols." Isays, "Yeah." She says, "Oh, I lived inNichols for a little bit." I said,"Okay." She says, "Yeah, I was I was outand I was struggling and blah blah blah

4:18 blah blah." And I spent some time livingwith a woman called Christine. I said,"Really?" She said, "Yeah, ChristineGraassic." I said, "That's my mom." Andshe said, "Your mom put me off. Shedidn't know me particularly well. Shelet me live where she lived." She said,"Um, other people weren't particularlyhappy about it." And she let me staythere while I got back on my feet. Um,and I for I remember it was emotionalcuz then she said, "Well, how's yourmom?" And I said, "Well, my mom's passedaway." And she cried.>> Oh,>> cuz to her she never knew this.>> Yes.>> So to me, this was like this somethingI'd become>> in tune with. But in her head, Christinewas out there somewhere doing something.Um, but that but I I knew that that'swho my mom was. And still now I'llrandomly bump into people and it's like,>> "Oh yeah, your mom did this or your mom

5:02 did that or I'll never forget when yourmom did that." And like my friends willtalk about my mom at random.>> Yeah.>> So because she had that kind of impactin people's lives is success. The impactwe leave behind>> and the success was being a communityperson.>> Yeah. 100%. 100%.>> What about your dad?>> So my dad uh is a Jamaican man. So, I'mthat wonderful combination of Jamaicanand Irish.>> Um, we don't want to pronounce the Hafter the T. Um, and um, my dad veryhardworking man, a man full of likeprinciples and moral. Yes.>> You know, in a time where I know a lotof my friends grew up without theirfather um, for all kinds of differentreasons. My dad was always there, was aconstant in our lives. And he like mydad was a man who when I think about my

5:45 passion for writing and my passion forliterature that came from my dad. Uh andthat my dad would like quote just poetryjust off the cuff just start throwingout poetry. And um like something I veryrarely talk about these days because ofRodard Kipllin's like um uh verytarnished legacy is my dad used to quoteif by Roard Kipling like like he wroteit himself and you'd be talking you'd belike oh dad this happened and thathappened and like if you can keep yourhead while all those around you arelosing what does this mean? And it wasyears until I started to grasp what allof that meant. But but my dad wouldquote Shakespeare. He'd quote Kipling.He'd quote all kinds of just poetry andand sayings and he'd quote stuff from

6:28 films. Like he always had a quote for asituation. So I remember a quote he usedto love. So it's not it's not a a greatliterary quote. It's from um the filmwith Danny Devito and ArnoldSchwarzenegger twins.>> Yes. And um my brother went out and hegot into an argument and it ended up youknow getting into a fight with her andmy dad says if you if at first you bluffprepare to have your bluff called and Iwas like oh what is that likeShakespeare or something? He's like nohe put the film on this daddy.>> Um but he always had a quote for themoment. He always had something to sayand my dad was um he was definitely thedisciplinarian of the house. Both myparents were disciplinarians, I suppose.But my dad was definitely theirdisciplinarian, but he had a way ofdoing things. So you you get in trouble

7:12 at school on Friday and you kind ofthink it's blown over. And Saturdaymorning, my friends are knocked thedoor. My dad said, "Just come and sitdown. I want to talk to you aboutsomething." And I say to my friends,"Just go. It's going to be a lecture.I'm going to be here for an hour and ahalf. You just go." And he'd just talkand talk and talk. I was like, and someof that stuff at the time was, oh, dadlike waffling on and 10 years later itmade sense or two weeks later I waslike, it's what my dad was talkingabout. Um, and still now in life thereare so many moments where>> I quote him, I reference him. Um, Iquote him as much as he quoted everybodyelse. He stole all the good quotes,that's why. Um and and yes, so and nowI'll just be like, you know, my dad usedto say, oh, you know, my dad would saypeople like you, you know, quote yourdad like he said a lot of wise stuff,you know, he said a lot of wise stuff.

7:55 Um>> and so for me as someone who my dad andmy mom didn't have formalqualifications, they didn't they didn't,you know, go and get universityeducation or anything like that, butthey were smart people.>> Yeah.>> They were they were they had a greatunderstanding of humanity, people,community. My dad was a was a person Istill hold this to this day where peopleused to say I used to have those advertslike is your neighbor a benefit sheetand you know dub your neighbor inbecause they're getting an extra 20pound and my dad would be like thepeople who are getting all the extramoney are the ones making the adverts>> and they want you to tell tell everyonethey want you to tell everyone oh myneighbors got an extra 20 quid meanwhilesomebody over there has got an extra 20million and no one cares and it was andand from young before it was a popular

8:38 thing to talk about it was pointing outto me that>> they want us looking at each other andpulling each other down. And the reasonwhy you haven't got anything is cuz theman next door with five kids living in athree-bedroom house, he's got it all.He's got nothing either.>> And the people telling you he's got itall. They've got it all.>> Divide.>> Yeah. 100%. And he was pointing thatstuff out to me before I could even getanywhere near understanding it.>> Another working class 6X story.>> Absolutely.>> An intelligent man.>> Yeah.>> Who probably never had the opportunitiesto develop>> in a way that he would like to havegone, but then just worked and workedand worked.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> But he infused you with a love of words.>> Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. To thisday.>> What was your dad's name?>> My dad's name is Earl.>> Earl. And he was from Jamaica itself.

9:22 >> Uh my dad, so my dad was born in inBirmingham, but he's he's like beenbackwards and forwards and then he umspent some time in Manchester, some timein the Hanssworth and then but he grewup predominantly in Nichols. So my dadwent to the school that I went to. Mydad went to Dunston Maana. I went toHarland High.>> Yeah.>> So yeah.>> Talk to me about your schooling from St.Matthews was it first of all?>> No, I went to Cromwell.>> You went to Cromwell?>> Yeah. I do love St. Matthews. Uh but Iwent to Cromwell School. Yeah. So, umjust on the corner of um Cromwell Streetand Rocky Lane. Uh and>> like I loved going to Cromwell school. Iloved school in general. And I thinkbecause I got in lots of trouble inschool and often when I talk aboutschool, I talk about the difficulties I

10:04 had in school.People think like I had a negativerelationship with school. Even though Ihad lots of bad stuff.>> Yeah. to deal with while I was atschool. I loved school. I would nevermiss a day at school. Oh my word. Um andyeah, Cromwell School. Uh we used tohave our little song to Cromwell School.We all belong. I can sing that word forword right now.>> Come on, do us.>> Uh I will. I will. To Cromwell School,we all belong. As one, we're standingfirm and strong. Let's raise our voicesin a throng together. Singing our schoolsong to this day. Love that song.Brilliant.>> [laughter]>> So, um, yeah, Cromwell School was agreat time. I met some, uh, some peopleI've been friends with for life. I met a

10:46 teacher there. So, my year six teacherwas a woman called Paula Osborne. And Ididn't realize it until years later.Paula Osborne was part of a, a group ofblack teachers who were being supportedtowards headship at a time when it wasunheard of.>> And she went on to become the headteacher of St. Matthews um and to becomethere are so many uh black teachers inthe city who would not have reached thelevels that they and did what they didwithout Paul Osborne. To me, she wasjust Miss Osborne who I wasunfortunately terrorizing throughoutyear six because I was a little bit ofchaos in a bundle. But um that wasCromwell School and then I went off to HHeartland's High um which had like youknow gives you a bit of an understanding

11:29 of where we were at that the school hadrecently had its name change becausesomeone had been killed outside theschool>> and and then as is often the case go ohwe'll just change the name we'll justcall it a new thing make a new uniformand we'll move on. um didn't necessarilyaddress any of the problems but um againI loved going to Heartland's high schooland I often talk about teachers who Ihad negative relationships with atschool but Heartland's high school I metMr. Richardson, who was my form tutor,who taught me what it meant to be um ateacher, taught me what taught me whatit meant to give kids a fresh startevery single time. And he always gave mea fresh start. He he gave me a love ofhistory as my history teacher and myform tutor.>> And I'm and to this day, like, you know,when people are walking around museums

12:12 and stuff, I'm the one reading all theinformation because I'm like, I want toknow the story. Um, and he gave me thatunderstanding that history is like thisone big amazing story which helps us tounderstand everything that's going on.Um, and so there was him, there was Mr.Clark who was a legend, Miss Jones whocame in as head teacher who once um kindof sat me down and said, "I know you'renot in the middle of this problem that'shappening at the moment, but I think youcan stop it. So if you don't stop it,the worst punishment I give out, you'regoing to get it as well." And I waslike, "Oh god, all right." and I went totry to solve this problem because Ididn't want to get in trouble. But sheknew, which I think is great leadershipin hindsight, she couldn't stop it, butshe needed it to stop.>> Yeah.>> So, she made that happen. Um,>> and I presume this was antagonismbetween different groups.

12:55 >> Yeah. So, it was it was a couple of uhboys who would come um from Kosovo.>> Yeah. Uh, and they'd got into a fightwhere they'd absolutely been in theright and a couple of the like of uslads had like given him a load of griefand they'd beat up a few people and thenwas like, "We're going to we're allgoing to beat him up at lunchtime." Andshe was like, "No, you're not. No,you're not." Cuz a they weren't in thewrong.>> Yeah.>> You wound them up and you got what wascoming to you. And B, we can't have thatin school. We can't have a school whereit's like they're from there and we'refrom here. We're going to fight them.And I went to a school with lots ofwhite people, lots of Southeast Asianpeople, lots of black people. And wenever had that. We never had thatdivision. I guess it's a I think that'sa very much a nature thing like>> growing up in nature. It was never therefrom there or he's from there. We we all

13:38 just came from here.>> Um>> but yeah, there was a moment there whereit was like this could have been aproblem like no we're not having thatproblem.>> You you mentioned that you had somedifficult times at school. Do you wantto explain that a bit?>> Yeah. So I mean part of that is I uhI've got ADHD. I didn't get diagnosedwith ADHD till I was 19 years old. So Iwent all the way through school withADHD, undiagnosed, um, and often justgetting into problems and dramas. Sopeople say to me, why didn't I doEnglish at degree level? But I, so intowards the end of year 10, uh, I gotkicked out of English in school. Iwasn't allowed to go to English for thewhole of year 11. So I passed English,but I scraped past, wasn't allowed to doa higher paper. And that was because u

14:22 two weeks in a row I had an issue withthe same teacher and she ultimately saidthat it wasn't enough that I was removedfrom her lesson. I would be um they'd berewarded me if they put me in somebodyelse's lesson. So I had to be banned.And the two problems one kind of doesn'treally doesn't really need speakingabout. But one was she'd read a poem uhcalled Halfcast by John Agard. Um andthe poem is about why we shouldn't usethe term Halfcast and and and the howproblematic it is. and she finished thepoem and she looked straight at me andshe went, "Was that okay?">> Oh.>> And I said, "I don't know. I've neverread that effing poem before." Oh.>> But it was like a w like I did Icouldn't understand why she did that orwhy that happened.>> You were the mixed race kid. Therefore,I'll ask you.

15:03 >> And the thing is, there was quite a fewof us. It was, you know, um N was in theearly 2000s, so quite a few of us. Butyeah, she just looked straight at me andsaid, "How was that?" And I was like, "Idon't know. I don't know what you'redoing here." Um, so yeah, so I had I hadstuff like that was often arguing withteachers, um, getting into confrontationwith teachers. And some of those thingsas I've got older and as I've become ateacher, I realized was just me being inthe wrong. Some of those things I'verealized is like some of the systematicissues in school. Yes.>> Because as a 14year-old,>> I couldn't be kid. You couldn't kid me.>> No,>> I was too smart for someone to say tome, "Oh, that's because of this orthat's because of that." And I was tooum I guess fiery or impulsive to just

15:46 accept that. So I'd say like that's alie. You're talking you're talking youknow what. [clears throat] So and andpeople didn't like that and then I wouldget get really flared up and reallyangry.>> And that's partly a problem that we havea middle class educational system thatdoesn't recognize the talents andabilities of workingass kids which isstraight jacketing>> them into becoming something they'renot. And there's something for me inbeing a teacher and I can think ofspecific kids in my head who I've taughtwhere, you know, as a as a secondaryschool teacher, I could potentiallyteach the greatest mind that this worldhas ever seen. And at 13 years old, theywill be smarter than I am now.>> And so we have this kind of thing of

16:30 like I'm the teacher, I'm in charge, Iknow stuff, and you're a child and youdon't really know that much. But we meetkids who know an awful lot. Theyunderstand things we don't understand.So my parents raised me to understandstuff that school wouldn't teach me.>> And I meet kids now who are like, well,you say this, but my mom told me thatactually that's that's the narrativethat we're told, but but really it'sthis. And you know, as a historianyourself, you're a prime example of notall of the history that we found in thebooks is exactly how things go.>> That's right.>> And there are kids who will say, well, Idon't believe in that. I don't agreewith that. Why should I say that? Why?>> And I think there's a difference there.I'm 69, a lot older than you. We didn'tchallenge when we were at school. And Ithink it's become more recognizable foryoungsters to challenge, but it's still

17:13 not seen as acceptable.>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of that is,you know, people like my dad and my momwho went to school, who were smart, whogot nothing out of school.>> Now, this isn't true of my own parents,but there are people like that who arelike, I don't value the education systembecause they kept me in school for 10years and I walked out with nothing.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> So now you're going to now tell my childthey have to do this? Like why? BecauseMr. Bailey said, "What does Mr. Baileyknow about this?">> Um, and I'm attuned to that. I'm I'malive to that fact. And I rememberthere's a girl I used to teach, one ofthe smartest people I've ever met, and Isaid to her, you know, you will on aday-to-day basis be taught by people whoaren't as smart as you,>> but they're not going to thank you fortelling them.>> No. No. [laughter]>> So, it's that balance of how do you playthe game? How do you go, okay, yes, yes,

17:56 miss. All right.>> Um, and know that you're going to getout of it what you need and you're goingto disappear and you might not see usagain, and that's okay. Um but like sheshe kind of opened my eyes to the factthat there were teachers who reallydidn't like her>> and she was really hardworking, reallydedicated, really smart. All the thingsyou want a student to be but also shewould tell them when they were wrong.>> She would question them and she wouldsay wow you say that but actually>> isn't it this and like well yeah it isbut that's only a level spec you don'tneed to know that yet.>> That's the problem. It's the spec.[laughter]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.>> Can I come back to naturals for a sec?One of my earliest memories is Ann andhad a house at 7 back six back to backhouse white house street next to AvenueRoad

18:38 >> and was moved about 62 63 cuz mygranddad Perry was was in a wheelchairwith multiple scerosis terribleconditions in a backto-back house andour nan knew a bloke called GeorgieCannon he was the shop steward at afactory he was a counselor he managed toget her a brand new mason on the groundfloor with hot water. She never had hotwater before on tap. An indoor toilet.She shared the toilet outside. A properbath. Two bedrooms in Robert Street.>> Rupert Street down the road from where Igrew up. And it's interesting, isn't it,when you when you say it like that,>> like how far we are on as a just as asociety. All that stuff's like standard.It's like electric windows in cars now.

19:21 That used to be a thing, didn't it? Likemy car has got electric windows. It'slike my house has got a bath. It was athing. Um but we I I was when I wasfirst born I lived on I lived in theMason on Cromwell Street which literallybacks on towe used to lie in bed we go to our landsin the summer holidays and we go to bedand we'd be looking at all the lights inthe highrises going off slowly.>> Yeah. Did you do the same?>> Yeah. I used to and and I love thosethere's those three tower blocks seventower Medway to Tower's Tower>> that to me just feel like home. Um, butit's interesting. I always say thatthose tower blocks, like originally whenthey started talking about certain towerblocks, it was like a replacement forback to backs. Yes.

20:03 >> And it was like, "Oh, you don't want tolive in a back to back with no garden."So then they build you up in the sky andput you back to back.>> Back to side to side to back to back.Like there's literally nowhere to move.You got a landing on a balcony. And butyeah, I love those tower blocks.>> And and something happened to you as aas a very young well almost a babe, butcome on, tell us about it. So um so welived in uh on in Mason on CromwellStreet and to get me to sleep my momused to take the washing out of thetumble dryer. She'd put me in thebasket. She put me back on the tumbledryer. So we had the warmth of theclothes and the vibration of the tumbledryer was the only thing that could getme to sleep. Uh and then one day shecame back in and there were rats in thebasket. Um which partly led to us thenmoving around the corner to Oliver

20:45 Street uh just before my sister wasborn. Um which is then where I grew upand where my dad still lives around thatway now. And just down the road, well,very close within a few yards was theRobert Pub.>> Yeah.>> Where my granddad used to drink.>> Yeah. Yes. You had the Robert Pub onthat corner. And then we were up by theuh the Oliver Cromwell. Yeah.>> Pub. Yeah. On the corner.>> So, yeah.>> Naturals means a lot to you. It does.>> And it it does to me in a lesser sense.I didn't live there, but I get veryangry at the way thatpeople from outside look at communistlike Neutrals and the only time you seethem in the press is negative. Uh thatangers you doesn't it?>> It does. And you know what's funny iswhat what actually what really angers meis I know that at times I've perpetuated

21:28 that. So when I was first kind ofwriting I would only write about thenegatives of from a place like Nichols.>> But but actually like I'm a firmbeliever that there are there arehorrible people everywhere.>> Yes.>> Bad things happen everywhere.>> Um often for no reason. Sometimes inplaces like neutrals for reasons likepoverty. Yeah. Um, but what what I'verealized now having lived in Nicholsmost of my life, having lived inWorcester, having lived in>> Sandwell, having lived in Shropshire,having lived all over the place,>> the sense of community you get in aplace like Nichols, you don't find thateverywhere.>> No,>> that's not that doesn't exist everywherewhere people go like, "Oh, you know,that's Christine's kids and andtherefore that means something andthey'll look out for you or say, oh, I

22:10 don't know your mom." And and there'llbe trouble or problems and someone willgo, "Oh, no, no, no, no. That's, youknow, that's Jessica's brother." Oh,okay. We need we need to stop this>> that sense of community.>> I've only ever felt that in Nichols.>> Uh and>> and actually something I realizedthere's a poet called Caleb Fei and hewrote a book called Paul. He's fromSouth London and and looking back andreading it, the amount of joy Yes.>> that is written into this. And when Iwhen I as like a um early to mid20sperson like looking back andintellectualizing my childhood, yes, Iwas quite negative about it.>> But thinking about how I felt at 15years old, I was having a whale of atime.>> I wouldn't have been anywhere else in

22:52 the world. You couldn't have sold meanywhere else in the world because>> this is where my family was. This iswhere my friends were. This is wherepeople that I loved were. This is whereI wanted to be. Whether it was justrunning around Bloomfield Park, whetherit was jumping off the garages on RobertStreet. Yeah. like whatever it was.Climbing up used to have the goodconquer trees down Robert Street. Umclimbing up there, get some conquers,get stung by some bees. That was thatwas exactly where I wanted to be.>> And I'm a I'm a firm believer that a lotof the people that I know who do greatthings, not just newsworthy things or orI say newsworthy not just the thingsthat make the news, um but really goodcommunitydriven things. They're fromNeutrals or they're in Neutrals now. Soyeah,

23:35 >> and we must make this point becausesomebody lives in an area that's seen aspoor and they might be strugglingthemselves doesn't make them a criminal.>> Doesn't make anything negative about>> poverty is a problem with regards tocriminality. But look at your mom anddad. They didn't turn to crime.>> 100%. And furthermore, lots of peoplewho are living with money and doingquite well because they are criminals.[laughter] Yeah. In>> one way or another.>> Have you got a poem you could give us?>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh so this poem is called uhDear Birmingham. Yeah. And it I think itgoes like this.Dear Birmingham, that doesn't even soundright. Yo, Braum, that's the kind ofthing that I would write. That's notbecause you're not dear to me or alwayshere for me, but I have heard your bark.

24:16 And more than once, I felt your bite.So, how you keeping? Still havingtrouble with your sleeping. When I thinkof you, I think about the long extendedevenings, nights that turn to mournings.Young brothers snatched from goodmothers. I think about the nights thatwe spent mourning. Think of CharleneEllis, Leticia Shakespeare, their familypain at the shame knowing that theyain't here. It's crazy how quick mom ordad can lose their baby. Bro, I loveyou. But at times I truly feel likeyou've betrayed me. Bro, I love you. AndI know I seem focused on your flaws, butI've seen so many die claiming postcodesthat are yours. I've no attention todraw attention to funerals I've attendedjust to mention your malfunction. So oneday they may be mended. Sometimes Ithink you're so sweet, but do you dothat to distract me? And I never thoughtthat Cabri will turn out to be so

24:58 crafty. Surely we could have fought forwhole nuts. Braum, ain't we toughenough. Instead, we showed no guts anddecided we should button up. And I don'twant to sound like a complainer or rantlike a Mona. And I realize it's been along time since Rover, but the drama andthe rubble since they built the lastbubble means this will be a long bridgefor those people to get over. Bro, Ilove you. And I know this isn't clearfrom my statements, but as a man, youdidn't live up to my boyhoodexpectation. Still, if they told me tolet go, I'd have to tell them, no, no,no. Like Amy offered rehabilitation, thehome of my relations, birthplace of mydreams, fueling my motivation, strongerthan kerosene. They call it the secondcity. But whenever I spend a second outthe city, I know there's nowhere betterI could be. Proud Birmingham son,married one of its daughters, met her in

25:40 King's Norton, bought the ringingjewelry quarter. Now I use her like ananchor. My connection to Braum, like theanchor hallmarks that we're pressing inBraum, the home of the innovators,focused on solutions like Matthew Boltonleading industrial revolutions. It'seasy to have a vision. Anybody candream. It's different to reach. Goalsburn. Coal makes steam. You ain't seenBraum if you ain't seen the tower blocksand try to define where the clouds startand the towers stop. You ain't heardBraum if you ain't heard the local ravemusic that's in the wild. Brum ismisbehaved to it. Arcadian lit up likean arcade tree where the shots are runoffer. High heels on feet. 20somes andlate teens heading to Broad Street.Before you know it, you be 40 sippingred wine in King's Heath. Brums are hometo the canals where I write poetry andthink the water still. Only thing

26:24 flowing is the ink. I think of horsespulling boats. I know that Braum'sengraved upon my soul. Like the wallsholding scars of old ropes. They'llnever kill my love of Braum. So if mypassion is their target, tell them bringa ring of balls. Bet you still theycouldn't mark it. Like the shadow of thecouncil house mountain or the fountainlaying under. Bro, I promise I will stayaround like the rata. I don't need 10letters. You know that ain't me. Youknow I sp Birmingham. H O M E. Sowherever I may be, I will carry yourthoughts with me forever yours. Mister,I'm in love with my city. from>> brilliant.>> Thank you.>> You fill me up with that.>> Thank you.>> Cuz you know how much I love>> Yeah.>> And I know how much you love. For allits faults.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> For all its faults, I love these still.>> Yeah. 100%.

27:06 >> And there are faults.Let me just go back again to the as a asa socialist story that's written a lotabout gangs, particularly in the later19th century, the Piquey Blinders. I'mI'm so angry that politicians, nationaland local, don't take on board not theexact lessons from the past, butpointers that deprivation>> is a problem.>> That some young men are drawn into crimebecause of poverty, not all, but some.That we need youth clubs,>> 100%.>> We're in a city now where they'reclosing down youth centers.>> Yeah.>> What kept you away from the post codegangs? Because that was starting in these 80s and 90s, wasn't it? I mean, ifI'm honest, you know, I I I didn't

27:49 always stay away from it. I was aroundit. I engaged with it. I was involvedwith it. I think I think I was lucky inmany senses thatuh I had I had people around me wholooked out for me. Some of them wereinvolved in gangs. Um and would say tome, you don't want to be involved inthis. Uh, I had times where, you know,when I was 17, I was stabbed multipletimes and I fell into a cycle ofnegativity and and and getting involvedwith that kind of lifestyle. But I thinkwhat it's a really weird thing to thinkof when I was at the age of probablyabout 18 years old, the people that werearound me that were involved in gangs,all of the ways that they were they weremaking their money were things I

28:32 couldn't really>> Yeah. I didn't really want I was had noproblem with the idea of going out andhaving a fight with them because they'refrom there.>> Yeah.>> That that was that was kind of okay inmy head. Um but I wasn't going to sellanybody drugs. No.>> I wasn't going to rob anybody ofanything that their parents work veryhard to get for them. Um and I rememberhaving a conversation with my friend. Iwas in my third year of A levels lookingat universities and my friend said tome, "What are you going to be? You'regoing to be a gang member and a doctor?">> Yeah.>> Yeah.>> Yeah. you're going to come out the GPservice at the end of the day and getyour hoodie on and come out and and hangaround with us. It doesn't make anysense.>> Powerful words.>> Um, and I was like, "Yeah, no, that'sthat seems like a flawed plan." Uh, andso I so I took myself when I went tocollege, I went from Nichols to Kings

29:16 Norton. Everyone where where I was fromwas going to college quite local. Theywere getting involved. They were likecollege was becoming a breeding groundfor things.>> Yeah. And I took myself off as far as Icould, two trains away, so I wasn't inand around it every day. And then when Iwent off to university, I took myselfout of the city after university. And Ilied to most of my friends about where Iwas going to university. So I told allmy friends I was going to Derby, but Iwent to Worcester cuz I'd been acceptedat both. And I was like, "Oh yeah, yeah,yeah, I'm in Derby." Don't know why Itold them that. Like anyone was going totravel that far. Um, and I remembercoming home from university at Christmasof my first year and seeing a load ofthe people who I would like normally bearound and they're like, "Where have youbeen? Where have you been?" I've been atuniversity. I'm like, "Oh, yeah,

29:58 university." Cuz they thought I'd beenin jail.>> I'm like, "No, no, no. I've actuallybeen to university." And they're like,"Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. University. Oh,yeah. We like nope. Actually readingbooks." Um, but so, so I I skirted veryclose to it. I I definitely engage withit at times, but I think, you know, thisgoes back to what I said about uh aboutmy dad and that some of the things thathe said like things landed at the righttime for me. So, I remember being in asituation where all of my friends wantedto go to a place where I knew there wasgoing to be trouble and I said to them,"Look, man, my you know, my dad used tosay to me, you have to balance what whatdo you get if you go there? What's thepositive and what's the potential

30:40 negative?" Now, there's 1% chance thatsomething really bad will happen. wasreally really bad. The 99% chance isjust just another night out. Like youcould you could miss it and not care.>> And I didn't go>> and somebody I know very well got shotthere and I was like this is why Ididn't want to go to that place.>> Um and so over over time those littlegems>> Yeah.>> dropped and landed. And I also wasfortunate enough to realize like Ialways say now some of the the hardestand and and you know the most dangerouspeople I've ever met if they were raisedin Sully Hall they they'd go down thepub they'd have a drink people go ohDave's having a drink you know what he'slike you hit someone he go home no onewill care they come back next week yougo sorry lads but if you like that and

31:23 you raised in Nichols Aston Hansworthand people see you fight that they go wewant him to be with us>> now you get roped into a very negativecrowd because it's not the same.>> Yeah.>> And very next thing you know that's theperson with the gun who's shootingpeople because that happens there and itdoesn't happen elsewhere. And sosometimes you know the same people withproximity to different things>> will make very different choices.>> You mentioned you were stabbed.>> Yeah.>> Can we talk about that?>> Absolutely. Yeah.>> What happened? So, it was a weird it's aweird uh situation uh in that I was Iwas out with some friends of mine andthere there had been an argument and itwas people from where I was from andpeople from another part of Birmingham.Um but the argument had happened around

32:06 a girl>> argument over a girl and my friend wasthere and he wanted to fight this guyand I was like we're not doing that.We're not you know we're not here forthat. and it all kind of dissipated. Andthen later on in the night, that guycame back and had a lot more of hisfriends with him and he was like, I wantto have that fight now. And I was like,no, no, no. We're definitely not doingthat now. Um, and long story short, thatbecame an argument. I I was kind of inthe process of trying to diffuse it.>> Yeah.>> Um, something that I've realized, Iguess, in time is that like at that timeand and through, in my opinion, throughno fault of the people that were thereon any side of it, like people showed upand they wanted violence.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> Didn't want a negotiation. They didn'twant they didn't want>> once he came back with his mate.

32:48 >> They want that's what they wanted. Andyou know>> and and on my side there were people whowanted that as well who had to get inthe middle of and say no no no thisisn't it. So it wasn't like you knowthey were bad and we were good oranything like that.>> And one of the things that that overtime I've come to realize is you knowthe person who did that to me was a boyjust like me growing up in an area justlike the area I grew up in had probablyseen all the kind of problems I hadseen. Um, andI I believe that at 17, 18 years old, ifI meet a kid, there's nothing thatthey've done that they can't redeemthemselves from. There's nothing thatthey can't turn around. So, when I thinkabout that person, that was really mytest of like, what does forgiveness looklike? Cuz I want nothing but the bestfor that person.

33:31 >> When you grow up, how we grew up,>> bad stuff happens. Sometimes to you,sometimes because of you, sometimesyou're just around it. Um, and I'm surethat there's there's people I've hurt inmy life. the people I've caused harm to.And I think a lot of those things arebecause I made choices I had to make ina less than ideal situation. And I thinkhe made choices he had to make in a lessthan>> So you're trying to diffuse it, but he'sgone for you.>> Yeah. Well, so ultimately, yes. But itwas like umthe comment was made and I'd kind oflike tried to laugh. I'm kind ofthinking now, maybe we're we're at agood point here. And I've kind of triedto laugh it off and and like, oh yeah,it's all it's all going well. Andsomebody said, "Is he being cheeky?" AndI was>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

34:11 >> And next thing you know, I I was stabbedin my back and in my leg and in mybackside.>> You were lucky.>> Very. So when I got to the hospital,they told me that um the stab wound inmy back was was quite close to being inmy spine, which would have been veryproblematic. And the stab wound uh in mybackside was very close to my femoralartery, less than a half inch from myfemoral artery. And I ended up So Iended up going away from the situation.I called the ambulance myself cuz Irealized I'd been stabbed. I didn't knowat the time cuz I was getting beaten upby a lot of people at the time. So Iwalked off down the road um realized I'dbeen stabbed and when they picked me upthe the woman in the ambulance said thatshe was telling this story. I don't knowwhy she was telling this story and itwas about someone who like I'd vaguely

34:54 crossed paths with um in my area who hadbeen shot and had got all the way to thehospital and when he walked intohospital he dropped down and died. Andso when the nurse actually did did mystitches and all that, she said, "Idon't think you realize how close youare to not being here." And I was like,I didn't know what to do with that atthe time. I was like, I don't know whatto say.>> Tell me about your mom and dad'sreaction.>> Um, yeah. So, so I think my mom and dad,and this was something that they didvery well as parents, they kind ofsheltered me from their reaction. So, itwas years later when I think it mighthave been one of my sisters who said,"You realize like dad got like a millionfines for running red lights on the wayto the hospital that night?" And I neverknew that. Um, and and stuff like that.But I think they

35:40 >> it was weird because at the time mybrother had been in a bit of trouble. Hewas a bit older than me. He he wasconsiderably tougher, stronger, angrierthan I was at the time. And we kind of Ithink in my family there was if that hadhappened to him uh which it did at aswell uh at different time people wouldhave been like that's they kind ofexpect that which sounds really bad andharsh on my brother which is now how Imean it um I think it was less>> expected of me but so then there was aperiod of time where they were quite umprotective and quite like trying tomanage me a lot but>> I mean ultimately Again, as I say, I Ithink it's really weird that where I

36:21 grew up and how I grew up, it wasn't asurprise to me that that could happen tome.>> No.>> Um, and but yeah, there were there was alot of emot there was some emotionaltimes in the house around that time.>> With all that hindsight, all thatknowledge, the understanding of growingup on the street,>> but having a really good family that aretrying to pull you in a differentdirection, how how do we address thatproblem today of knife crime and postcogangs?I I think I really think it comes backback down to what you said earlier. Ithink the route is so far away from thefrom the work that we're doing. So I Ioften talk to young people about aboutknife crime and I talk to people aboutum these kind of problems. But thereality is it's so far removed from whatwe see on the street. It is

37:04 >> youth clubs shutting down. It is umfresh start centers shutting down. isjust poverty and>> and the the absolute ignoring of povertyand the dangers of it.>> I remember I went to I was doing somework in a prisonuh in uh Milton Kees with some likeyoung men, so 16 to 21 year olds andthey'd had a session with a woman whoseson had been killed and there was a boyin there for possession of a of a of aof a knife. And I said to him, "Do youthink you know what you heard today willchange how you see things? And I chillsme to my core. Never forget what hesaid. He says, "No, because somebody'smom's going to be in here talking abouttheir dead son and it's not going to bemy mom."

37:46 >> And so to him is like I'd rather be theperson killing someone than the personbeing killed.>> And that what it what it showed to me islike to him it's inevitable thatsomeone's going to get killed.>> So his job is to make sure it's not him.And because of the impact of poverty andthe impact of neglect of people in andand and the flip side is where we're Iguess we're in a worse situation now isthose are the people from inner cityBirmingham, inner city London, innercity Manchester who then decided they'regoing to make music about it and talkabout it. So now you've got a wholeadditional layer of people from, youknow, I've taught in Shroptshire and thekids are talking like they're gangstersand blah blah blah because that's nowglamorous.>> Yeah.

38:27 >> More than it ever has been. And I don'tblame a kid from the middle. I don'tblame a kid who grew up in Pekkham,whose brother got killed and whose momhasn't got any money, who went down thisroute and is now making music andactually making a living for themselves,talking about>> the reality of their existence. Peoplego, "Well, you shouldn't be talkingabout that." Shouldn't be living likeit. No,>> but nobody wanted to do anything abouthim living like it. Now that he's sayingit, everybody wants to. And this issomething that my own work with thePeaky Blinders and the Slogging Gangshas been so to show that gangsterism isnot glamorous. It's harsh. It's>> brutal. It's horrendous. Yeah. And andbut that when you've got and this againcomes back to the education system andagain is political. When you've got kidswho go to school and from 11 years old

39:12 they've never passed a test.>> Yeah.>> They're not going to get their GCSE.>> They they they feel just squeezed out bythe system.>> Yeah. and they go, "Well, they've gotnothing to lose in the confines ofeverything we're telling them they'remeant to do. This is how life's meant togo, but you can't do it.">> Yeah.>> You're not going to get the grades.You're not going to go off to college.You're not going to go off touniversity. You're not going to get thisjob. But that guy over there, he'sselling drugs and he's doing all rightfor himself.>> So, he's my role model.>> Well, I could do that.>> Yeah,>> that's achievable.>> I'm a fighter. I'm I could do that.>> I'm good with my hands. I can I can beatsomebody up wicked. And and until wehave uh like a a system that says to akid that maybe Shakespeare isn't yourbag, but actually you see those skills

39:54 you have, you could build this, you canmake that and and that's worthy>> valuequalifications in it. You can do well,you're great with people, you can dothis, you can do that. until we have asystem that tells them that. And moreand more over the last 15 years ofgovernment, it's gone, you know, youneed to learn a foreign language, youneed to be able to do geography orhistory, you need to do this, you andit's like squeeze, squeeze, squeeze,squeeze, squeeze.>> And now you've got people, I can't doany of that.>> Yeah.>> But but there's a guy on YouTube who'sgot 50 million views with a big Rolex onsaying,>> I'm just going to talk about stabbingpeople. Well, maybe I'll talk aboutstabbing people as well. when I was atthe UN at in the university job uh mycolleagues didn't like it when I said I

40:38 wasn't a professional that I was askilled manbecause my for me what makes my skillbetter than my wife who's a hairdresser>> or a plumber or electric we're allskilled and what we should be aiming foris for all of our youngsters to be ableto achieve a skill>> skill 100% absolutely and so I thinkthat so for me when we look at what thethe solution is. It just goes far beyondYeah.>> the kid that we actually see Stelling onthe corner. It goes beyond his parents.It goes beyond his grandparents. It'sare we going to fund and and the realityis, you know, getting getting superpolitical. You know, in a world where wespend how much money on nuclear weapons,Yeah.

41:20 >> but we got kids living in poverty.>> You know, there's this is it this is theoutcome of choices.>> Yeah.>> And if we if we don't make differentchoices, we're going to keep getting thesame outcomes. So you've you've managedto stay on at Dunston well don I wasgoing to call it but heartland's high asit became>> you're doing A levels you now historywas one of them wasn't it?>> I didn't do A level history I kind ofwish I did um but although it's a lot ofwork [laughter]um so I did A levels in chemistry,biology, uh PE and psychology.>> Right.>> Yeah.>> Your mom and dad must have been reallysupportive.>> They were. They were. And you know, IthinkI remember having a discussion with my

42:03 mom about where I was going to go tocollege and she didn't want me to gothere cuz it was far and I was a littlebit of a loose canon at 16 years old. SoI used to want I wanted to ride my bikethere. My dad said, "You're not ridingyour bike there. You'll get run over. Iknow what you're like." Um and I alwaysbut I says to my mom, "I don't want togo to I'm not going to name the collegescuz it's not fair to go." But there werelocal colleges where I knew someone whowent there and they were like, "Yeah, meand such and such go there and we dothis." And I was like, "This is notwhere you want me to go to college." Andso she says, "Well, we you know, crackon, go." And I used to get two trainsand it was um like I I love CabriCollege. I wouldn't say a bad word aboutit. I nearly got kicked out. That was my

42:45 fault, not theirs. Um but but yeah, myparents were very supportive of of ofwhatever I wanted to do that waspositive, basically.Let's just talk for a moment about theproblem sometimes with masculinity>> because you what a lot of you have saidis struck a core with me. I grew upbetter off both sides of my familieswere fighting men and women>> and I was always the negotiator if therewas a bit of trouble at at the disco orwhatever.>> And I always thought, well, you know,I've got to I've got to prove myself.I've got to prove myself.had a few close shaves, was on the edgein the 70s with getting involved infootball virus like you managed to pull

43:28 away.>> Yeah.>> Um and was riled by mom and dad forgetting too close.>> But there is a thing when you're fromsimilar backgrounds like us that you youwant to prove yourself asa tough man.>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think in many waysI'm I'm really lucky. So I've 100% hadthat problem. Um, and there's been lotsof times in my life where I've kind ofplayed up to it or>> or or just or just naturally have havehave reacted to a situation>> based on the fact that I've exper I'vebeen around a lot of violence andexperienced a lot of that.>> I guess my um something which has savedme I've never said this to either ofthem to their face but my brothers

44:11 >> both considerably harder than I amum andI always kind of this is something thatkeeps me out of trouble. Yeah,not so much anymore cuz I don't getanywhere near trouble these days, butsay when I was mid20s,there'd be a problem unfolding and Iwould see someone and it looks like it'sgoing to be a problem and I think thatcould be my brother.>> Yeah.>> And if I had to try and fight my brotherright now, it'd be a very short fight.>> Yeah.>> Be a very short fight and I would lookvery pretty at the end of it because Idon't know who any of these people are.No.>> So if you put me and my my two brothersin a room,>> any one of us could be a fighter and anyone of us could be soft as anything.Yes. But you wouldn't know. You wouldn'tknow until you upset one of us and yougo, "Oh, he's pretty odd." So, Irealized I don't know who's out there.

44:54 >> Yeah.>> I don't know what they what they're herefor, what they're doing. And my dad usedto say, as I always say, my dad used tosay, "There's no medals.>> No one's going to give you achampionship belt. No one's going to payyou any money. If you win the fight, youjust win the fight." And when I became ateacher,I've always said since 21, 22 years old,qualified to be a teacher, if I fight, Ilose. Even if I win,>> cuz if I beat somebody up today and getarrested,>> then that's my career.>> Your career's gone.>> Career down the drain. For what? BecauseI'm stronger than than Bob down theroad.>> It there's literally zero value inwinning a fight unless you're in a ringand someone's throwing some money atyou. And I don't want to get in the ringand fight anybody even. [laughter] So Sohow how do we address that problem,which it is a problem that both of us

45:37 have got good educations, but we stillhave that kind of feeling about proveourselves as fighting men.How do we stop that earlier on that toshow young men in tough neighborhoodsthey don't have to be fighters asmasculinity can be something else?>> Yeah. I I mean I think and this is sothere are a lot of people doing um Ithink very well-intentioned work aroundthis but I don't necessarily agree withtheir work cuz there are a lot of peoplewho are kind of like they they'repushing for anti- knife crime but theystill want to resolve it with boxing orfighting or the reality is to me wethere just has to be a clear step awayfrom violence. Violence has never solvedanything. Um, and people don't like tosay that and it's like, oh wow, if you

46:20 want to be an alpha male, if you want tobe a real man, you have to be dangerousand all. I don't believe in it in theslightest. I believe that what we needto do is>> we need there's two I think there's twoaspects to it. One is we need to make itclear to to boys that there's no gloryin going out and having a fight. Youliterally get nothing from it. And ifyou talk to most men who have lived alife around violence, who are 35, 45,50, they'll tell you that.>> Yeah.>> Oh, Bobby used to be the hardest guy.And you talk to him and he'll go, youknow, my hip hurts and my fists are abit messed up and nobody likes me and Ifeel awkward. And those people are neverlike, "Yeah, I used to b people.">> That's not that's not how it goes.

47:03 >> But the flip side is there's a there's athing about respect becauseMy so so my brother would often likerough me up a bit in the house because Iwas quite quickwitted. My brother Ithink is smarter than I am but wasn'tnecessarily as quick as I am.>> And he'd frustrate him. Yes.>> And he'd be like, "Do you know what?You're a cheeky.>> Yeah. Right. Who you talking to?" Andsometimes there are people who are notviolent people,>> but they're smart>> and they think they can talk down topeople because they're smarter thanthem. And then those people go, "Right,my only recourse now is to punch her.">> Yeah.>> Because you're embarrassing me or you'reupsetting me. you're not respecting me.So, the only way I can make you respectme is through this physical.>> And in a society that for centuries hasnot respected working-class men and if

47:46 you're poor sometimes as a man, and I'mnot excusing it, but it's a reality, theonly way I can show I'm a proud man isby being the toughest man.>> Yep. And that's so we need to there's athere's a mutual respect between someonewho could beat me up not beating me upand somebody who I could outsmart andmake look like a fool and I'm notsupposed to make them look like a fooleither.>> Can we have another poem?>> Oh yeah. Okay. Um yeah. Okay. So thispoem is called Multiple Choice and itdeals with um suicide and some of thestigma around suicide.>> Find a new place to hang this noose.Stop killing those who have alreadykilled themselves like they haven'tsuffered enough already, carried enough

48:30 already, died enough already. To labelsomebody a coward when they are nolonger here to represent themsel has tobe the worst cocktail of cowardice andhypocrisy that I have ever tasted. Maybehe did it because he saw no hope in thislife. Maybe they did it because theironly hope is that another life wouldfollow. I always thought the mostdifficult multiple choice questions arethe ones where you feel like all of theanswers could be right. Gravity ispulling us all down. And just becausebricks fall faster than feathers, itdoesn't mean they're weaker. They justcarry more weight. A man who lookedyoung but aged with a face likedistressed furniture once told me thatthe greatest misconception around

49:14 suicidal people is the thought that theywant to die.Nobody wants to die. The issue is noteverybody wants to live either. The mostdifficult multiple choice questions arenot the ones where we feel like all ofthe answers could be right. The mostdifficult multiple choice questions arethe ones where you are sure that none ofthe answers are right and then you haveto choose one. Anyway,>> that's powerful. What led to that poem?umpeople that I know unfortunately intheir own life>> and we need to just emphasize here thatwhilst we've been talking aboutviolence, one of the worst examples ofviolence for workingclass young men is

49:59 suicide.>> Yeah. And that's uh unfortunatelysomething I've I've seen quite close upand so that's led to the writing of thatpiece.>> Is that through a lack of hope?>> Um I think so. I think I think you knowmost peoplehave elements of their life that they'renot happy about that they want to seechange and for some people they can onlysee the things that that they're nothappy with and they can't see arealistic route to what they want.>> How does young Casey then go fromcollege at Cabri College to university?>> Um I followed the girl. Followed thegirl. She was pretty. Um no. Yes. So mymy girlfriend at the time who's now mywife um was going off to Worester

50:42 University to study art. Um and my umteachers there's a there's a powerfulthing about going to the college that Idid. They never they always spoke aboutwhen you go to university. So like mychemistry teacher Dr. Smith was likewhen you go to university you'll dothis. And I remember actually mysecondary school chemistry teacher Mr.Clifford saying when you do Alevelchemistry>> yes>> you'll learn about this. And people talkto you about when when you do this, whenyou do that, when you go to university.So I had this weird double life ofwhenever I wasn't at college. I was justout and about just wreaking havoc,causing trouble. But whenever I was atcollege, it was like when you go to uni,when you finish your UK application,when you do your student loanapplication, and everyone was justtalking to me like it was inevitable,

51:24 >> Yeah.>> that I would go to university. And Ioften when I work with um when I coachfootball in the inner city, when I workwith kids who don't see themselves goingto either university or apprenticeshipor doing more, I've talked to them aboutwhen well when you're doing yourapprenticeship and when you've got thatjob and when you're a carpenter and whenyou're a doctor, when you're a lawyer,whatever it is, because if you say ifit just leaves that room for doubt. Ihad no doubt I was going to universityeven though I had no idea what I wasgoing to do. Um and I went off touniversity and didn't know what I wasdoing. So literally literally six weeksinto the course I was doing realizedwhat the course was. I was like oh>> and what was it?>> So I was doing I did a joint honors

52:06 degree in sport studies and physicaleducation. Yes.>> Which I thought was just like GCSE orAlevel sport where you learn aboutsociology of sport and psychology ofsport etc. And I remember was about six,seven weeks in and um my lecturer saysin in about 4 weeks we've got the kidscoming in from the local primary schooland you're going to teach them thesethese like core games things. And I waslike stop to the end of the lecture. Idon't want to I don't want to teach thekids from the local primary school. Shewas like this that's part of the course.I was like but but this isn't what Iwant to do. And she's like but you'redoing a physical education degree. Isays I know what I'm doing. I know whatcourse I'm doing but I don't want to dothat. She says, "I don't think you doknow what course [laughter] you'redoing." And it turned out I was doing adegree to train to be a teacher, but I

52:50 didn't even realize that that was thedegree I'd taken. I just followed thegirl.>> Now,>> it's turned out all right to me.>> So, your wife's name,>> Kerry.>> How important has she been to your life?>> Whole different life. I can't imaginewhat my life would be without her.Genuinely, I don't want to imagine whatmy life would be without her.>> Um, yeah. She and and you know, my wifeisagain proper working-class background.um kind of between Bartley Green uh as akid and over to Billsley as a little bita little bit older, but had due to herfamily situation had has kind of alwayslived um very much in poverty and verymuch from a background of um scraping toto make things happen. And her dad uh is

53:34 someone who uh basically did everythingthat he could to make things happen forhis girls. Um and and in my opinion is ais a hero as well. Uh and now doeseverything he can for my boys, which isalways lovely. Um but but she, you know,if you looked at me and my wife when wemet at 16, 17 years old, her prospectswere were zero.>> You know, you wouldn't have thoughteither one of us was going to doanything worth doing. My wife is anamazing teacher. She's a a departmentleader for art in her school. um andconsistently does everything she can forthose kids to do everything they canbecause she understands the value thather education in art had for her.

54:17 >> Um and between us we've modeled togetherand you know then managed to build outthis life which we you know we're happywith and>> it's good for our kids.>> So Kerry>> she from Bartley Greek big whiteworkingass area. What similarities doyou see between a white working-classarea that's facing deprivation, a SouthAsian area that's facing deprivation, ablack area that's facing deprivation, ora mixed area that's facing deprivation?>> Um, I think for me the biggest thing is,and and this is something that we'vekind of both experienced in differentways is there is a weird um there is aweird way that your own community andand people look at you when you want to

55:01 do something. So we get so entrenched inthe idea that you know this is who weare and we don't have much that the ide>> you know in in in all of those types ofcommunities the situation where the sonwants to travel the world and it's likeyou know you think you're better than usyou're going to go over there do youknow uh I say that for my for mywonderful brother who's living inAustralia. Uh I've seen I've seen thesituations where the daughter wants togo off to university. What do you meanyou want to go off to university? Youdon't go to university, you get a jobdown there and you and so>> anything that feels outside of>> what we're used to feels like an attackon yes>> on who we are and then from the outsideit doesn't matter with all that ambition

55:45 and all that hope you get outside andand you you're them again you the kidfrom naturals again>> so you can you can very quickly be likean alien everywhere>> because at home people are notnecessarily used to aspiration somepeople are some people are very aspirantand they want to do loads of things.Some people are a bit like he thinkshe's nice. He does cuz he's, you know,he's written a book.>> He's defensive, isn't he?>> Yeah. Yeah. Because they because they soused to being judged by people from theoutside>> that if somebody starts to look likethat, they start to go, "Are you goingto start to look at us like they look atus?">> Yeah.>> And then you get outside of Nichols andthey look at you like, "Oh, go back toNichols." Like, so it's like it's easyto feel um>> kind of like attacked on all on all

56:28 corners. I think I think what I what Ithink is also very evident though andI've only realized this since moving outis I think that people from working-class backgrounds are the most ambitiouspeople. Uh not everyone because therenot you can't say everyone's the same inany class group, race group, gender,whatever. But I meet I I've now metstudents who are from a relatively umaffluent background and things are goingwell for them. They don't care howschool goes, not bothered. they're goingto be fine because they might live in acouncil house in an area that somebodyfrom Nich's worked all their life to buya house next door to.>> Um whereas when you know when I've whenI've worked within the inner city, youknow, people see I say this from coming

57:12 from a teacher's point of view, peoplesee their education or their skills as aroute to>> a different life and a life where theycan be more comfortable and and feelless like they're chasing and scratchingand crazy. And I wish we could justtransform things so that people don'tfeel that they have to leave who theyare. They don't have to move from theirdistricts. We should be improving thedistrict so people can stay stay local.>> This is why, you know, there's a umthere's a guy called John Street fromhe's not I don't think he's from Nutellactually, but I've always known him asbeing from Mitchell since I was a kid.>> And he runs an organization called Freeat Last.>> When I was maybe 13 years old, FreeAtlast was a boss. The boss used to pullup in neutrals. You get on a bus, you do

57:56 DJing, MCing, you play board games. Itwas like a youth club,>> but it just pulled up on a bus.>> Now, Free at last is this massive youthcenter in Nichols. They got one of thebiggest climbing walls in the region andthey've got a studio. They've got he umkids run businesses from there. So, theymake things and sell them from there.And John, you know, said to me when Iwas quite young, actually round aboutwhen I was going off to university, youknow, he he couldn't just tell peoplefrom Nichols that they could be anythingwhilst he was traveling into Nichols andnow he he lived in Nichols. He raisedhis children in Nichols who have gone onto do whatever they wanted to do.>> And he said, you know, I'm going to do

58:38 it from the middle of this community. Helives around the corner from the youthcenter. And so that that ideais something I believe in. And and Iweirdly I say this and people will sayto me, well, why don't you live inNichols? Unfortunately, because of thedramas I got myself into as a kid, therewas a period of time where I had to beout of where I grew up because>> uh didn't I didn't want to um repeat andgo through the cycle of of stuff thatI'd been through. But when I look atsomeone like John Street, he is theepitome of, you know, he came into thearea. He told everybody in the area youcould do great coming from the he toldme it. He's one of the reasons I believeit. And then he stayed in there and heproved it. Um and he's just Yeah. Sowhat free at last doing what John does

59:20 just amazing inspirational>> Martin Luther King>> and that's where he comes from. Free atlast.>> Free at last.>> Free at last. Free. See you picked thatup straight away. John had to point thatout to me many years after I first>> It's one of the greatest speeches. Yeah.>> In history>> when he stood there>> filling up thinking of you I'm free atlast shouting out to black people oneday we will be free>> at last. Yeah. And John Street is awhite man.>> Yeah.>> In Nichols telling often black boys,black girls, Asian boys, Asian girls,white boys, white girls, people fromeverywhere. Free at last. You'll be freeat last.>> What What's next for you? You'reteaching obviously now you're stillperforming.

1:00:03 >> Yep. Always. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.>> Tell me a bit about the performances.>> Um so I make music and I make uh and Iwrite poetry. So um I kind of I've had aI've had a a little resurgence around mymusic recently around um managing toperform. I did a headline show at umSymphony Hall this year which wasamazing. Um and so I'm just kind of tobe honest the music is something that Ienjoy, something I'm passionate about. Ihave no um I have no belief it's goingto do anything for me other than fulfillme. But you know what? That's quite alot. So um so I'm still doing that. Mypoetry uh I'm working now on um a newcollection of poetry which you know

1:00:46 fingers crossed I'll get to the end ofit somehow. Um and then I've beenwriting theater. So my my play please donot touch uh went on at the Bgrade in2024.um and starts a national tour in January2026. So, um it'll be up and down thecountry and I'm kind of on that.>> What kind of music?>> Uh I make grime music. I make hip-hopmusic. Um uh being very particularsonically, sometimes I make music thatthat would be drill music, but itdoesn't have the message of drill music.Um>> just explain what you mean by grime andand drill.>> Uh so so weirdly grime and drill. Sodrill technically sits at around about70 beats per minute or or 140 beats per

1:01:32 minute if it's double time and it's gotlike a very swampy bassy kind of umsound to it and you rap over it. Grimemusic sits at 140 beats per minutepretty much quite tightly. Um it'sfaster in terms of how you perform overit. Um and grime is very much um like aUK form of>> very much Birmingham as well.>> Birmingham's had a very heavy uminfluence on grime and so um gosh Ican't remember where we are in time lastyear. Uh I wrote a book called Legacy. Iwrote it with um artist manager calledJess Monroe. So Jess Monroe did a loadof interviews and I wrote um thechapters of a book which deals with 2000

1:02:16 to 2020 in the Birmingham grime andhip-hop scene. Uh which very proud ofbecause you know that that captures thespirit of of the city that I grew up in.I guess>> now drill is mostly associated with alot of is would I be correct in sayingthis with violence?>> Yeah, that's fair to say. There's a lotof drill music has come out of and indifferent sounds what originally cameout of like the Chicagoum issues around gang violence inChicago. It became a very strongrepresentation of of that community. Thesound kind of changed but the spiritstayed the same very much in London ofyou know it's it started very much as aas an art form where it would be people

1:03:01 talking directly about incidents thathappened on the street and this thinghappened to that person this person didthat and that was really the kind ofbirthplace of of drilling this.>> So your own drill music is that anattempt to show a nonviolent side? Yeah,I think for me, so so a lot of the stuffthat I rap about is>> is like the antithesis of like what younormally like about music. So it's I'mstill talking about the problems ofpoverty and violence and and all thisstuff, but I'm I'm very strongly againstthose problems>> and and talking about hope and talkingabout doing more. But there's no pointin me um writing a a 10,000word essay onwhy the young man down the roadshouldn't shoot someone because the

1:03:43 young man down the road is never goingto read it.>> So I want to pull it in a way that sitsalongside the exact same thing thattells him he should do it. So he couldhear that song and hear my song side byside and musically they don't sound anydifferent but the message>> is very different. So I'm trying toreach people where they are. You've alsobeen very involved in Continental FC.>> Yeah. Yeah. Continental Star.>> Tell people who they are, what they do.>> So, um, Continental Star is a footballclub, um, or family club as we say, um,based in Birmingham, based in kind ofPerry Bar essentially now. Um, and Istarted coaching at Continental becausemy very good friend Daniel Moses wascoaching there and we coached the teamfrom under 12elves up to under 19s and

1:04:27 they're boys from Aston, Hansworth, NewTown, Lzowls, Nichols, um, areas where alot of those young menwere going to grow up around violence,gangs, drugs, all that kind of stuffthat that people think epitomizes thewhole of those places. And when I thinkabout um Continental Star, I think aboutthere's a young man I used to coachcalled Jedi Campbell who's now at theBirmingham City Foundation um and doesamazing work in the community and has amassive positive impact in thecommunity. And like I look at at storieslike Jedi and I think you know maybeJedi was always going to be that personbut I feel like the chance that we had

1:05:10 to coach him to mentor him to work withhim>> has shown him you can do that for otherpeople as well and now he goes on and hehas that massive impact himself. Um sowhen I was when I was 18 years old Iplayed for Continental Star under 19s.Um not very well but there we are.>> And we need to mention link link Moses.>> Link Moses. Yeah. So Lincoln Moses uh isthe I mean I guess technically t likethe general manager of something. Um andLincoln was Lincoln is the person whokind of has has spearheaded that clubfor as long as I've known it. So you'retalking 20 years and before um we tookkids to Germany on on internationaloutreach programs. We have taken kids up

1:05:56 and down the country. So, uh, I I kindof maybe 10 years ago stopped activelycoaching at Stars, mainly just becauseof my own commitments to everyone elsein my life, but I always kind ofconsider myself as an ambassador of theclub. The club does great workconsistently, and a lot of people'slives are better because of it.>> Casey, it's been a I'm not going to saya pleasure. It's been more than that.It's been enlightening. It's beenuplifting.One day, with God's grace, we will slaythe demon of poverty. Indeed,>> one day with God's grace, every childirrespective of their color, theircreed, their class will haveopportunities>> and thanks to you, a younger generationof young people can see a positive rolemodel.

1:06:39 >> Thank you, Carl. Appreciate it.>> Can you finish us off with one morepoem?>> Oh, do I know anything off the top of myhead? Um, don't want to do anything sadeither. I got a lot of sad poems. Um, soI do. So after I wrote Dear Birmingham,which I did earlier, years later I wroteDear Braum, um, which is like a followon, I suppose.>> So I could do that.>> Dear Braum, of course I'm here writingyou again. The marrow in my bones, thefire in my pen. You are the music in myaccent, the reason that I sing. Placelike the main attraction, the middle ofeverything. It's so appropriate that wesit in the center of the land. The placethat so many can reach, but few canunderstand. You have to really breatheit in. Walk amongst these people in this

1:07:22 so-called second city. We are more thanjust a sequel. Original in every way.The light that never fades. And thegames have come and gone. But my citydoesn't play, so let the flags streamthrough. But we've had a preview in acity that is home to so many dayto-day.It hasn't always done us proud. Home ofEnoch's speeches. Rivers couldn't washthe blood. You can't dust or clean it.Its legacy lives on. And we'vedefinitely moved on. But life is notalways a beach in the city of nobeaches. We've had our dark Sundays, butMonday brings dawn. So we survived theBlack Sabbath where Aussie was born.Iomi Ward and Butler making every songspecial. Down the road from Iron Bridge,we were forging heavy metal. WhereRoland Hill invented stamps, where JKmakes grime, a place with so much

1:08:06 heritage, but somehow in its prime. Justlook at Chamberlain Square. Clock Towerrising in the air. And you don't evenhave to stare for you to see. It's ourtime. Time is precious with the beautyand the pain that it delivers. Glassbuildings rise around me. I'm reflectingin these mirrors. When I think of whatI've lost in this city, I get shivers.But if I'm the town hall roof, then thecity is its pillars. The expertise atthe QE could not be overstated. If youunderstand it, there's a reason whyBirmingham's a place where Malalalanded. When she arrived, her life wason the edge. Let's not understate it.Fought for girls education. Then inEdgebaston, she was educated proud.That's the way my city makes me feel.Loud about achievements that you won'tbelieve are real. Clouds can hammer uswith rain and make the river swell, but

1:08:50 the storm is water off the dock's backon these brum canals. I am Leon Priest'swords. Jia superstar. There's ananatomics [ __ ] spray painted on myheart. The art just like the peoplearound here will always be eclectic.Putting on a show for years. Go andcheck out the electric. Respect it. Thespecial kind of story that we write.Give it credit. And that's why the orderof Steven Knight keep racing. It's justanother lap of Alexander Stadium. Go forgold on a podium. Be bold. BeBirmingham.>> Thank you.>> I want to say your mom must be lookingdown and saying, "I'm so proud here.">> Thank you.>> Your dad, please give him my regards,tell him he's>> brought up a fine son.>> Thank you.>> Not only a fine son of his family, afine son of Birmingham.

1:09:33 >> Thank you.>> And may I wish you God's blessings.Appreciate it. Thank you, Co. on you.