Siobhán Stevenson

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0:00 We walked this line as in Ireland you'rethe English and in England you're theIrish. Transformational, life-changing.It made me really look at myself and mylife and the things that I was takingfor granted and also the things that Iwas moaning about and it just made merealize how stupid that is.>> Hello there. I'm Carl Chinn and welcomeback to Our Lives, Our Stories where wedelve into the uncovering of the lifeand the story of somebody who's made animpact. Well, we've all made an impactin our lives, haven't we? But these arethe people I want to bring to the fore

0:42 and let you share with us and them theirstories, their life. And the person I'mgoing to be chatting with today is Dr.Siobhan Stevenson. She's involved inoral history, in museums, in education,in lots of different projects and we'regoing to be looking at those as well aswhat led her into a passionfor oral history, a passion that Ishare. Siobhan, thank you for comingalong today.>> You're welcome.>> Tell me then about your present workvery quickly and then let's go back tothe beginning. I was reading on theLinkedIn page that you're an oralhistory participation creator.>> Yeah.>> What does that mean?

1:23 >> So, I'm working on a project. I spendmost of my time working freelance butdoing a variety of different things.What you'd call a portfolio career, Isuppose.Um but I'm on a project at the momentwith Birmingham Museums as an oralhistory participation curator. So, themuseum has a whole city sounds archivethat sits in the archive effectively.So, it's a range of heritage projectsthat were done by different groups anddifferent communities at differentpoints in time. And because they'rearchived, one of the issues we've got inthis city is that communities can't getto the archives necessarily.So, there's an attempt at the moment.They got some funding from the Esmee

2:06 Fairbairn Foundation.And Birmingham Museums has selected fourcollections to make publicly available.And so, my job at the moment is doingthat. I've been doing it since November2023, just on a part-time basis.And I catalog the collections, althoughI'm not very good at that bit, I don'tthink. There are people that are muchbetter than>> Oh, stop looking yourself.>> But, I also work with volunteers. I getall the audio ready because mybackground's in audio production aswell. And I make that available onlinethrough a website and images and sounddatabase. And then I work withvolunteers who transcribe thoseinterviews.And then, the best bit, the bit I lovethe most, is actually going out to

2:50 different groups and educationalpartners.And playing bits of the archive to themand then working with those groups todescribe it, to talk to them about oralhistory, to try and get them to thinkabout their position in the city'shistory and what their story is andwhere it fits.>> Now, we're going to come back a bitlater on to talk about some of thespecific oral history archives you'vebeen working on. You're also given as amuseum project educator.>> So, I I mean, that really comes from umyou got to go back a bit for that. Isort of I spent quite a long time inhigher education.>> Yeah.>> Um teaching uh radio and more generallymedia production, but also um media and

3:33 cultural studies research. But, allalong I've been interested inmy ownuh if you like, education as anon-traditional sort of route, if youlike. So, I didn't do a degree until Iwas in my 30s umcuz I didn't have a great time atschool. I I didn't really enjoy schoolvery much.And I also became a parent quite young.So, my route back into education wasthrough courses that that kind offocused on community training in thecommunity and sort of city servicevolunteers and things like that. So, Ium,

4:15 you know, I I've kind ofI've kind of trained in differentscenarios. I've worked in I've trainedin community settings and also collegesand higher education and just communitygroups as well. Basically, whereveranybody's interested in learning skillsand I can help them learn those skills,I'll go with I can.>> Let's go back to the beginning then. So,tell me a bit about where you grew up,your your family background, and thebeginnings of your passion, a sharedpassion we have for the spoken word fromworking class people.>> Well, my family's Irish. My parents areIrish. Um, my dad's family all come fromDublin.

4:58 Um, my mom's parents were also fromDublin, but my mom's family was aninteresting one because they came toBirmingham for work. My mom was one offour and they did this thing that a lotof Irish families do where they had ababy, came to Birmingham for work, had ababy here, went back to Ireland, had ababy, came back to Birmingham, hadanother baby. You know, so my mom'sfamily is a mix of sort of um, siblingsborn in Ireland and then siblings bornin Birmingham. My dad's family are allfrom um, Ireland. But, he came as wellwhen he he I think he was about 18 forwork.

5:39 Um, and they met at the Emerald Club.Um, and the story goes that my dad sawmy mom and thought she was gorgeousand walked her home because the heel hadbroken on her shoe and said to herwithin 6 months of meeting I said if youmarry me you'll never work another dayin your life. They got married and on aboxing day by January the 1st he got hera job.>> [laughter]>> Tell me the names.>> My mom was called Georgina and my dadwas called Owen but my dad did thatthing that lots of Irish people do whereOwen wasn't his actual name. His givenname was Eugene. But everybody calledhim Owen and for years we couldn't

6:24 figure out it caused no end of problemsbecause you'd book things in the name ofOwen Mullen and then you know you'd haveto change the name. So we were foreverchanging names on plane tickets andthings like that. Um but I've I've sincerealized that actually the Irishspelling of Owenthat's probably where it if you read itit looks the Eugene thing could getmixed up.>> It's spelled in the traditional way E OG H A I N.>> E O G H I N?>> I N. So that wasn't bad for anEnglishman was it?Hey?>> But of course he never spelled it likethat he spelled it phonetically O W E N.>> What about your mom's family?

7:06 >> As I said my mom's family were kind ofhere. So there were three girls. My momhad two sistersand then a younger brother.And the younger brother what they were aproper working class family. They livedin Vauxhall.>> Right.>> In a flat and they went to schoolslocally but her brother who was theyoungest was a post war baby.And there was always a kind of thingwith that because he was allowed tofollow his dreams a bit more. So hebecame actually a writer and a poet. Hemarried an Irish girl moved back toIreland became part of the nationalpoetry society of Ireland. He wrotebooks and plays and all of that and theywere immensely proud of him, like really

7:50 proud of him.But I always felt sorry for my mom andthe other girls because they didn't havethe opportunities that he did.But my mom passed away in 2007 and andwe hadyou know, a funeral and it was a lovelyfuneral because loads of people cameout. My mom was one of these people thatwas just known everywhere, you know.Andhe came he came to the funeral and gotup in the church and said, you know, Iremember all these days of sharing abedroom back in Vauxhall with me sistersbecause of course it was only atwo-bedroom flat. He said and Georginawould cut out the obituaries from theevening mail and they'd put them allover to stick them all over the wall and

8:33 say, oh, I want people to say that aboutme when I die and they'd have likethey'd pick the best ones and say that'swhat they wanted people to say aboutthem. So, yeah, I mean it they wereimmensely proud of him but I just don'tthink the girls got the sameopportunities.>> And we should explain to people thatdon't know Vauxhall is a name that'sdying out there but it would be wherepeople would now say Nechells.>> They made a point of kind of saying, youknow, it was Vauxhall, it was adifferent sort of makeup and I think herealized like how boundaries and bordershave changed and areas have changed. Ididn't actually realize until recentlylike how big Bordesley was.>> Yeah, it's huge.

9:15 >> And and sort of how rural it was and Ithink some of the things that you'vetalked about in the fact in the past,you know, about areas and how they'veevolved and and grown and the peoplehave shaped them. I think it's reallyinteresting when you go back inBirmingham's history.>> Did you know your mom's parents verywell?>> I know my nan better than my granddad.My granddadYou see, I was born in Birmingham, butmy parents took us back to Ireland whenI was a baby. So,I was born in '72, but we stayed inIreland for 5 years and we came back in'79. We went when I was little.Um and one of the reasons we came backwas because my granddad had passed away

9:57 in '78. My nan My mom wanted to be withher mom and her sisters were still here.So, it was only the brother that was inIreland. We moved back then. My granddadwas interesting cuz he was a twin.And again, two Irish men. Um but hisbrother Willie had left Ireland and cometo England to to join the English army,the British army.>> As many Irish men did.>> Yes, and my granddad stayed in Ireland,but then followed him a year laterwhen he was actually old enough to jointhe British army. And so, you've gotthese twins who look the spitting imageof each other,

10:41 but on paper, they're a year older. Likeone's a year older.So, um but he was a very quiet man.My nan was the sort of the dominant onealways. It's always been women in myfamily. The women are the dominant ones.>> Whereabouts in Dublin were they from?>> So, my nan was from the Coombe.>> Right in the heart of the Liberties.>> And my granddadhe's got a bit of a difficult familyhistory. So, we started to look at umthe O'Loughlins and where they camefrom. They seem to have originated moreacross the west of Ireland, but I I'monly starting to catch up with thathistory now because this is the thingI've never really had chance. But it's

11:25 interesting as you get older, you spendall this time trying to encourage otherpeople to talk about their own familyhistories and for for a long time I'vekind of neglected my own to be honest.So it's only you know, it's only now I'mstarting to kind of catch up with that.And yeah, there's a lot more work to bedone.>> What about your dad's family? They wereDublin.>> Dad's family were Dublin.Um there were loads of them. My dad grewup in Dominick Street, which is centralDublin.>> Just on the north side of the>> Yeah, north siders, yeah. He had quite ahard childhood I think cuz his dad wasquite hard. They lived in a tenementblock. They were in two rooms I think.Um but he had

12:08 Now let let me count. Me uncle Paddy, meauntie Mary, auntie Chrissy, me dadMichael. There were five of them.Five of them.But my uncle Michael was killed when hewas seven.So apparently the story goes there was agang who used to frequent the street.Andone of them wasclimbing with a metal bar on a piece ofstringand waving it around and this bar cameoff and went through his head.>> So thatobviously my my granny Mullen camerunning down when they heard thecommotion and everything and doing whatany mother would doshe pulled it out.

12:51 >> Oh my god and that>> And that killed him.So they never quite they never quite gotover that.>> And this would have been the 30s,wouldn't it?>> Early 40s. Early>> Right. There was a a an infamous gangfrom the north side from around GardinerStreet and Sheriff Street called theanimal gang at that time.>> Right, okay. I didn't know that.>> Yeah, they fought with bicycle chains.>> Mhm.>> Do you have any memories of living inDublin?>> I do have memories of living in Dublin,yeah. Um there was So it it was trickycuz obviously we walked this line of inIreland you're the English>> Yes.>> and in England you're the Irish.>> Yeah.>> So, that that can be that's complicatedmix sometimes. And of course cuz we werekids when we moved to Dublin, we went to

13:36 um our parents bought a house in CabraWest because it was near my aunt'shouse. Um and it was a bit of adoer-upper, I think. We lived in thishouse. My mom had an English accent. Mydad didn't, but my mom did. A Birminghamaccent specifically. So, my sister's 7years older than me and she recalls atime whenthe IRA were kind ofprominent, prolific.And couple of fellas came down ourstreet apparently because my dad had aBritish number plate.And so, Marie said they were sort ofhanging around, you know? And she had toshe had to say

14:18 my dad's Irish. You know, I know whatyou think. I know it's a British numberplate, but my dad's Irish. My family'sIrish. And she took them to the door sothey could meet my dad so that they'dhear he was Irish. Now, I don't rememberthat of course cuz I was young. All Iremember is playing hide and seek withthe Healys and you know, going to thechip shop and you know, all of that sortof stuff and hiding out in differentplaces. I had a great time. And Iremember like at the time it was allopen fires, but the but there was stilla man that used to come with a silvercross pram>> Yeah.>> full of peat.>> Yeah.>> And he had little kids and and thiswould happen regularly. Every weekthey'd come and he'd shout, you know,

15:00 come and buy your peat. And these kidshad freely out peat and you know, Ithought it was I think I look atIreland sometimes with rose-tintedglasses because of when I was when Ispent those years there. And then alsowhen we moved backmy um the only cousins we were quite atight-knit family and my mom sort ofkept a close eye on that. There's allthese things around, you know, umsafety in numbers and stick with yourfamily because when your friends go,you've still got your family. And so wewere brought up with all of that. Andthis dynamic of kind of being theEnglish in Ireland and the Irish inEngland, I think she thought if we couldstay together within the family unit and

15:45 have friends within the family unit,we'd be safer, I think, in her mind. Somy closest cousins in age, um lived inIreland. So of course when we came backto England, I was bereft. I'd lost mepals. So I used to go back every summer.I used to get put on a plane as a as alittle eight-year-old with a plasticthing around me neck.And I'd go off to Dublin. My uncle wouldmeet me at the airport and there I wouldstay for 6 weeks.And they just That was it. I just wentback to Dublin. And also, I've onlyrealized this, you know, in the lastsort of 10 years, really, because it'scome up in conversation. I didn't

16:28 realize but when we came back toEngland, I came back first with my momand my brother and sister stayed inIreland with my dad. Now I've forgottenthat as a memory. So somewhere and I cansee why as a sort of, you know, a7-year-old, why that would be quitetraumatic to leave your siblings to gosomewhere where my nan was more inmourning at the time cuz my granddad haddied. So her and my mom and her sistersmust have been having all theseconversations and there's me as a7-year-old, you know, playing around andlistening to this. So I think thatthere's a bit of that I've forgotten andit's only come to the fore when, youknow, as you would imagine, 10 years

17:11 ago, we're all sitting around talkingand my sister said, "We were there 6months on our own,4 months on our ownbefore we came over to you. So, I didn'tI'd forgotten.>> What did your mom and dad do work-wise?>> They were manual workers. My dad workedin a factory. My mom worked in thehospital in Dublin and then worked inthe hospital here as well. And I thinklike my mom had lots of different jobs.You know, but they were all sort ofmanual jobs. But she was a fierce tradeunionist. So, she was always the gobbyone trying to organize everybody and getthem together. My dad'slike My dad was diagnosed with angina inhis 40s and then had to have a triple

17:56 heart bypass. So, which at the time, youknow, if you think my dad was born in'37, so we're talking the the sort of'80s,early '80s. Um that took him out of workcompletely. He he never worked againproperly after that. He just couldn't goback.>> How did you cope?>> My mom just stuck her back in and got onwith it and took on another five jobsand that was it. Uh we all had Saturdayjobs. So, my sister was out the door assoon as she was 16.And it does make me laugh because I'vegot a friend that we've talked aboutthis before. And it was at the days whenyou used to have to write letters toemployers. You know, you couldn't Youcouldn't send an email or you couldn't

18:39 sort of tweet them or, you know, send anInstagram. It was like writing lettersafter letter after letter. And you'dlook in the evening mail on a Thursdayfor the jobs. And that was it. You'dwrite after them.Um so, my sister had to do lots of thatas soon as she left school. She got ajob pretty early on.Um she started with the temping agencyand then started working for the councilwhen she was about 17, I think. So, ofcourse then it was like, "Oh my god,she's got a great job. She's working forthe council. We've made it, you know.>> Job for life.>> Yeah.>> Head of the age.>> Yeah, that sort of thing, yeah. Mybrother was a completely differentstory. My brother's dyslexic, but he'sfiercely intelligent. And my mom would

19:24 never let that hold him back, so shereally pushed him, you know. It wasreally like get your foot behind hisback and push him. And it worked. And mybrother's become quite successful.>> Your mom sounds like a really powerfullystrong woman.>> She was, yeah. Immensely strong. And Ithink, um, you know, she she's not theonly one, her mom before her, andyou know, itkind of goes, but there's a long line. Ican see it in my own daughter as well,sometimes, you know, I look and I go,"Oh god, she's got it."Yeah.>> I interviewed an old bloke many yearsago on my radio show on BBC WM. Prouddaughter, proud Brummie, proud to beIrish, but proud to live in England.Do you find that you find that you

20:07 there's aspects of both cultures and ofboth cities that are influencing you?>> I think one of the reasons I've stayedhere, and I've had periods where, youknow, I've lived abroad and stuff likethat, and I've kind of come back toBirmingham.I am proudly Irish. I would not be who Iam without,you know, an Irish family behind me. I'mimmensely proud of that. Of my heritage,but I'm alsoreally proud of being from Birminghambecause we're different. We aredifferent, regardless of what anybodysays. I know people rave about London,and they go on about the the engine ofthe north and how great Manchester isand Glasgow is. And I agree, all of

20:50 those places are great, but they'redifferent to Birmingham.You know, we're a city that was built onthe backs of immigrants. And again, I'mreally proud of that.>> I'm an Englishman, very proud to beEnglish, but but my Englishness isinclusive.>> You step your foot inside the boundaryof Birmingham, and you enjoy yourselfand go round and meet people, andthey'll adopt you as quick as that.>> Now, let's go back to the storytellingbecause, like me, you've got a passion.I've said that a couple of times alreadyfor oral history, the spoken word ofworking-class people. Simply becausewithout the spoken word, working-classpeople would not have been able to passon their stories. Where did it comefrom?>> I could tell you a lovely romantic storythat lots of people, you know, say

21:33 about, "Oh, I'm Irish. We'restorytellers and poets and musicians."And And all of that is true. I did growup round a lot of musicians, round a lotof sessions where people stopped andtold stories. You know, there's a lot ofpeople in my family that are greatraconteurs. There's a lot of peoplethat, you know, uh uh sort of frequentplaces in Birmingham. You'll find them.They're everywhere. But, I think thetruth of it is that the interestingoral history came from wanting to knowmore about other people, but understandmyself.And so, I was doing a courseat um

22:17 I just had a baby.And well, t- a couple of years ago, mymy daughter wasabout 16, 17 months old.I'd been living in Cyprus with her for afew months, with her and her dad for afew months.And uhI knew I had to come home. It's like,"Okay, I've got to get my life togethernow because, actually, after spending aperiod of time away, I started torealize that bringing up a child in akind of party town wasn't wasn't a goodthing, really, and I needed tothink about what I was going to do toprovide for this child, both me and mypartner, my husband, now.Umhad had all these conversations being

22:59 away from everyone. But, I'd always haddreams I used to be in bands, so Ialways wanted to be a singer, you know,it was always like, "Oh, I'm going to bein All Saints." And then I realizedlike, "Oh, no, nobody wants anyone inAll Saints that's got a baby."So, that's not going to happen. Um So, Iknew I was interested in sort of I wasinterested in television, actually. I'dalways been quite interested in howtelevision worked and stuff like that,but I didn't know anybody that worked init.I just thought it was one of thoseindustries, you know, the arts and andtelevision radio and all of that wassomething for other people. I didn'tthink I'd even get a look-in, you know.Maybe as the skivvy, maybe as Mrs. Mop,but you know, not anything else. My mom

23:44 had been contacting me with courses likeI had to ring home every now and again,you know. So, I was contacting her,actually. I'd ring home. And she'd say,"Well, I found this thing in the eveningmail." You know, cuz she was just tryingto get me focused and it was called aHNC in radio broadcasting.And she was like, "If you're interestedin television, lots of people cuz ofcourse my mom was a ferocious reader aswell." She'd read stories about otherpeople. She was like, "Lots of peoplestart in radio and then they go intotelevision. So, maybe you could dothis."So, anyway, we were packing up inCyprus. We got home. I applied for thecourse. I got on the course. And ofcourse, it was community radio trainingin Winston Green.

24:27 Now, my Irishness up to this point. Whenwe came to England and I was seven goingon eight, we weren't very popular in1979 in Birmingham because of the pubbombings. So, I lost my accent veryquickly and I even stopped tellingpeople my real name. I think I used tosay my name was Rachel. I don't know whyI thought that would be any better. But,I think it ityou know, we mentioned it before, theaccent sort of thing. Everybody calledme Siobhan.But, they used to take the mickey andsay, "Siobhan, your knickers yourmother's coming."Which for a for a an 8-year-old, 78-year-old was horrible. So, I'd go awayembarrassed. So, I never told anyone myproper name and I'd kind of stayed away

25:10 from all of that almost not being veryvocal about being Irish.It wasn't a thing.When I started to do community radiotraining in Winsor Green, suddenly I wassurrounded by people of Caribbeanheritage.Um or people that had come from Africabecause it was hosted at the AfricanCaribbean Resource Centre.>> Yeah, on the Dudley Road.>> On the Dudley Road, yeah.Um and they'd got something called anRSL which was a restricted servicelicense as you probably know. So, youcould do a course and then it ended in aa threea 12-week broadcast. I I went on tostudy all of this and you know, I becamefascinated with the the way the radio

25:52 sector works.But umYes, so I got on to this course anda woman called Helen Lloydwas one of the tutors on the course andHelen taught us interviewing. Now, acouple of things happened on that coursethat that stayed with me forever. Iwouldn't have done I went on to do aPhD. I would not have done that if itwasn't for doing that course at theAfro-Caribbean Resource Centre in inWinsor Green. Because firstly, what itdid waslots of people started saying to me,"Well, you're Irish. You could do anIrish show."And I was like, "Oh, I don't I don't Idon't know about that." And once we got

26:35 into more and more conversations and Istarted to kind of talk about mybackground, lots of people would say,"You know, you should celebrate beingIrish. You should celebrate it. Don'tshy away from it. It's who you are.Celebrate it." So, it took me being inwith a load of Caribbeans to actuallygo, "You know what? They're right. I'mIrish. I don't know I don't know why Ihaven'tum felt so connected to that. I don'tknow why I've shied away from that." So,that was really interesting, but also itgave me loads of confidence because ofcoursein a radio stationyour literacy, your numer- numeracy, allof those things are improved when youlearn production skills.

27:19 And suddenly having a microphone infront of you and being able to playmusic that you want to play cuz I didn'tjust do the Irish show. I did alunchtime show as well. And got a tasteof being able to go out and andinterview people and things like that.Now, because Helen taught usinterviewing skills, I hadn't quiterealizedthat because Helen was although she'dworked for Radio 4 and she'd done stufffor Women's Hour and all of that,um she'd started to move more and moreinto oral history.And she became the producer for aproject called The Century Speaks, whichwas um a collaboration between theBritish Library and the Oral History

28:01 Society. And the idea was to take asnapshot of Britain as we moved into thenext millennium.So, Helen was kind of aware that thiswas going to happen within the nextcouple of years. And so, when she wasteaching us interviewing skills and shewas saying to me, you know, you you'requite good at cuz straight away we weretold to go and interview someone. Ipicked me mom.>> Yeah.>> Because it's me mom. I always knew shewas interesting, you know, but I alsoknew what to ask about.Umand of course I got a great interviewand I brought it back and I learned toedit it on a big reel-to-reel like. Anduhyeah, that that's another storycompletely learning how to cut and

28:44 splice tape, dropping all the breaths onthe floor and then having to relabelthem and put them back in, um, was areal challenge, but I loved it.Um, and so Helen kind of stayed in mymind. And when she got this job for theCentury Speaks, by that time I was onanother course. I was doing a, uh,it was a thing called City ServiceVolunteers, CSV.And they were running a radio journalismcourse. So, I was doing that after,afterwards, um, and part of thatplacement was at the BBC. So, you didthe course, but there was a placement atthe BBC on the Really Useful Show, whichseems mad when it was a radio journalismcourse, but the placement was for TV.But there you go, I suppose they were

29:27 sparse at the time.And while I was doing that course, Ifound out that Helen had got this job.So, I just pestered her.Pestered her, and pestered her. I wroteher letters. I just did everything totry and get hold of this woman.And then said, "Can I come and hangaround with you? Can I come and watchyou do? Can I come and Can I help? Can Ido You know?" And I was fortunatebecause I had the support of my parents.I could do that. Still got a job. I wasstill, you know, doing a job, um, tryingto make money on the side, but sort ofgoing and and trying to help Helen. Andeventually a job came up as a researcheron that. And I just, you know, made surethat I knew everything I needed to know.

30:13 I studied for months to get that job,because I was like, "That is going to bemine. There is no way that job isgetting away from me,um, cuz that's my stepping stone." Andsure enough it was.>> This is a big jump for you because we'vewe know that you didn't like school. Ipresume you left school as soon as youcould.>> I was the first year of GCSEs in 1988,and they didn't know what they weredoing, to be honest. It was a realtransition period. So, there were loadsof kids in my school that came out withterrible qualifications.And, you know, I I I think I got my topmarks. I got an A in art,which is hilarious because I can't Ican't draw or paint or anything like

30:58 that. I think they only get I only gotthe A because of the ideas cuz I amquite a creative thinker. I'm just notvery good with me hands, really. Um but,everything else I was terrible at. C's,D's, terrible.>> Excuse me for interrupting theconversation, but I just wanted to getacross how important it is that everyonetells their story because everyone has alife and everyone has stories to tell.Now, you can do this in different ways.You can use your mobile phone. You canget somebody writing down the memories.You can get a collage of photographswith stories around them. Or else, ifyou're struggling to get started, wehave a free guide on our website. AndI've also brought out this book, My

31:42 Life, My Story, a guided legacy journal.There's an introduction by me. There'squestions and writing prompts for you tothink about that can move that storyforward and get those memories down.So, what did you do when you leftschool?>> When I left school, I went to college.Um I did a BTEC diploma in caring forthe sick.And after 2 months, realized I don'tdon't like sick people. So, it wasn'tfor me. I couldn't imagine myself in ahospital or doing anything like that.Um I just didn't have the patience forit at the time.So, I kind of dropped out of that courseand then I went back and retook some ofthe GCSEs.

32:27 And then I left college. I started Alevels. Part way through the A levels, Ileft college, moved to London for a bit.Um and then came back, got a job at theMetropole Hotel, saved up loads of moneyand went traveling.>> It's all happening rapidly, isn't it?You go to college, you leave college,you go traveling.>> I was kind of that period of my life didhappen everything happened reallyquickly. It became a kind of cycle ofworking for a bit, earning some money,going away traveling. I went to Indiafor the first time when I was 19.>> You too.>> And um, stayed away four months. Andthen when I came home I was like, allright, I've got the bug now. I don'twant to stay here, I want to go. So, I

33:10 was really fortunate with thatwaitressing job um, at the MetropoleHotel cuz I could just get back on theroad to it soon as I landed back. Theyalways needed waitresses. So, I'd justwork and work and work and save themoney and then book a ticket and goagain.>> What was India like?>> Oh,transformational. Um, life-changing.>> Explain why.>> Because I don't thinkI think sometimes you get so boxed in toyour own life. You have no concept ofwhat's happening in the rest of theworld. You know, our lives are small,especially if you haven't got muchmoney. You're dealing with what's infront of you, aren't you? And so lots ofpeople don't get the opportunity reallyto travel and if they do get the

33:54 opportunity, it's like two weeks away orthree weeks away because they've got ajob. I realized pretty quickly thatduring this period of my life I wasfortunate cuz I got no ties. Everythingwas about me. You know, and I reallytook advantage of that. And when Iarrived in India,I was kind of on this backpacking trail.I went with a couple of my friends.>> Right.>> And we went to Goa.So, we arrived inMumbaiand then made our way down to Goa.And stayed in Goa for a bit and that wasgreat, but then I went traveling andleft the two girls there. Went travelingwith another group of people.

34:36 Um and we went down south to Kerala andI think the reason it was sotransformational was because it made mereally look at myself and my lifeand the things that I was taking forgranted.And also the things that I was moaningabout and it just made me realize howstupid that is.You know, I I'd really got I was meetingpeople thatIndia is such abeautiful country, but by the same tokenit's full of so many contrasts. Andespecially in the 19 early 1990s,you know, you'd go somewhere likeCalcutta and at the top of a roadthere'd be a big palatial hotel and youwould see people coming out and gettinginto big Mercedes and huge cars and

35:21 clearly very wealthy people.But the street at the side, there weretents with people living in tents,families, you know. I'd never seenI know we look around now and there's alot of homeless people now, but in the1980s in Birmingham, you didn't see thatmuch of that. So I'd never really seenpoverty so starkly in front of mebecause II was born in the 70s, you know, Ihadn't lived that. I now know people inBirmingham born in the 20s, 30s, 40slive I know child poverty now, but atthe time I didn't know about that. I Iwas coming to it completely ignorant ofthose sorts of things and it was juststark facing me when I went to India for

36:05 the first time. And I think it was amassive culture shock, but once Ionce I accepted it for what it was andonce I really started to just immersemyself as an observer in somebody else'scountry and realize what a privilegethat was.You you it it it it just changed mylife.>> You mentioned earlier on thatyou wanted to find out more aboutyourself through oral history. And Indiaas well was finding out more aboutyourself. There's a real connectionthere, isn't there?>> There is. And I think it's something todo like we talk about it in terms ofprivilege now and and also whiteprivilege, you know. And that phrase isa controversial phrase that lots of

36:47 people struggle with and I understandwhy. Um I personally don't struggle withit because I understand that the colorof my skin lets me pass in so manyplaces that if if I was a person ofcolor I wouldn't be able to. I There'dbe assumptions made about me straightaway. Now that's true of the workingclasses as well.>> Yeah.>> There's a really interesting academicthat that I just think is brilliant. Hername's Emma Dabiri and she's um she's ablack Irish woman.>> Yeah. I met her once.>> And yeah, she she she fascinates mebecause of her perspectivebecause she talks about intersectionalidentities, but also just like the classsystem is a construct. Um and actually

37:31 you should align yourself with peoplewho have been oppressed in the same wayas you have.>> Whatever the color or creed they may be.>> Exactly. Now I Iappreciate um becauseof my level of education and this issomething to do with some of theresearch that I did while I was doing myPhD. Because of my level of education,because of the way I lookyou know, because of of the theuh circles that I sometimes mix inpeople make assumptions about me beingmiddle class. Now it's all very well andgood me saying I'm not middle class, I'mworking class cuz that's how I identify.>> I don't.>> But the truth of the matter isI

38:14 don't the the working class experienceparticularly at the momentis a very different one to the one thatI grew up with or you grew up with. I'mnot saying there's not similarities,there are, but I think to be workingclass at the moment is being weaponizedin a way that it's never been weaponizedbefore.>> It's very tough.>> Yeah, really tough, really tough.>> Cuz avenues of escape, pop music, etc.have all>> Yeah.>> acting>> Yeah.>> all being cut up. Can I just come backto something that you mentioned yourealized how much poverty there was inthe '20s, '30s, '40s? Irish people Iused to drink with said, "God, it wasshocking we came here and see Englishpeople living in poverty." Is that

38:57 something that surprised you with yourresearch?>> I mean, I didn't see it first hand,obviously, but I think the the job thatI'm doing now because I've kind of oneof the collections that we've got waspart of an initiative called Change inthe Inner City done in the 1980s. Andand it was a huge oral history projectbecause, you know, the the city councilsand andumlocal education authorities andeverything were involved and tradeunions involved in the collection oforal history.Um and so the West Midlands Oral HistoryGroup, which no longer exists, sadly,and the city council devised thisproject and they looked at five strands.They interviewed people across fivestrands in Birmingham. So, there was

39:40 childhood, the collection that I'mlooking after, food and drink, which umPublic Health Birmingham have been doingsome work around, um and looking atthose old oral histories and what theymean in terms of public policy now.Um so, yeah, childhood, food and drink,the Gun Quarter,immigration, and public baths. And ofcourse, Moseley Road Baths is just, youknow, just been refurbished. So, we'vegot um interviews in the collectionabout Moseley Road Baths as well. Um butmy focus has been on childhood and thethemes that have come up from thathave been largely around poverty andchild poverty. And also the idea that

40:24 there were well, there were lots ofphilanthropists in Birmingham. One inparticular, Percy Shurmer.>> Percy Shurmer was an MP for Sparkbrook.>> He would pay for poor children to go onholiday.Now, when I first heard this, I thought,that's very nice of him paying for youngkids to go on holiday. But holiday,going on holiday means>> [laughter]>> Well, it was a charabanc up to theLickey Hills, you know? But the ideathat children could get away from thecity for a day, you know? And andlistening through all of theseinterviews, I've learned exactly howhard it was for people.Um and how did And some of the issuesare the same as we're seeing today. It'sjust there are more and more because

41:07 politics is becoming more and moredivisive.Um then we're kind of, you know,memories of how bad it was.Um but then also memories of how good itcan be are being lost. And I thinkthat's really sad.>> All my grandparents all wore daily mailboots, charity boots.>> Yeah, Birmingham.>> I'm very lucky. I grew up well off.That's the debt I owe is to those thatcame before. Percy Shurmer was gassed inthe First World War. He came toBirmingham from Worcester and he becamean active member of the Labour Party,stood onsoap boxes. He was known as the miskinking because he would go round and knockdown the dilapidated brick area where

41:51 the rubbish was put, the miskins. Andtherefore, they had to put dustbins inand the dustbins became called themiskins, which is an old English wordfor rubbish heap.>> I didn't know that.>> So, now where are you now? You're you'refreelancing. YouIt's It's not an easy route to beingfreelancing in history.>> No, it's not. I mean, if I'm honest, youknow, the the full-time academic job Ileft because I was becoming quite Theplace I was working was a greatuniversity in Birmingham. It wasBirmingham City University. Thedemographic of the student that goes toBirmingham City University I completelyunderstand.>> A lot of them are first-generation.>> Yeah, yeah. And a lot of them have comefrom non-traditional educational

42:34 backgrounds, which was the same as me.So, I loved it there. I loved workingthere. And the opportunity toprofessionally develop myself, to do aPhD research and then come away with aPhD was massive, uhhuge for me. And, you know, huge for myfamily as well to have a doctor in thefamily. Um although it's it'sinteresting, I don't use the title somuch anymore because for some people insome circumstances it can beoff-putting. Their ideas of what anacademic is,you know,puts them off. I don't want to be seenlike that. So, I'm a bit like you. I'mproud to have it, but yeah, it's notsomething I throw around all the time.>> What was the doctorate on?

43:15 >> There's a specific policy in communityradio called the social gain policy. So,each community has to demonstrate thisevery year to be able to retain theirlicense. So, obviously Birmingham is mycity. So, I looked at stations inBirmingham, very different stations. NewStyle Radio was one of them, which waswhich is now located at what was thenthe African Caribbean Resource Centre.Um so, I went back and and uhasked if I could do my research there. Ialso looked at a station in Castle Valeand then one over towards West Brom.Social gain is is all about developingthe community. It's all about training

43:57 and developing people within thecommunity and providing a a voice forthe voiceless. I wanted to know how eachstation does that because they'reserving different audiences. That wasfascinating and I love doing that workand again, it's all about people'sidentities and where they fit in thecity and in the story of the citybecause I think sometimes we we tell avery narrow story of Birmingham.Of course, we've got the legacy of theIndustrial Revolution. Of course, wehave. Of course, we've got the JewelleryQuarter. Course, we've got chain makers.We've got all of those lovely things umthat come through Birmingham, but Ithink the social history of communitiesand and how communities have developed

44:42 and, you know, sort of moved out of thecity and also, you know, the the that'sstill happening. These concentriccircles ofmigrants come into the city and beingquite central and then slowly but surelymoving out um out to the outskirts ofthe city. That fascinates me.>> When I was at Fircroft Adult EducationCollege, there was so many working-classwomen, more than men, who've gone back,deciding they're going to make somethingeducationally of their lives. You'vedone that.Would you have any advice?Because you come from a verynon-traditional background, as did I,but I had a more traditionaleducation than you. What advice wouldyou give perhaps to a a young woman or a

45:26 young chap in your kind of circumstancesas you would have been?>> It's really difficult. It's reallydifficult because I had a lot ofsupport. I had a lot of of help.Mentors have been huge in my life.People that have championed me.To be honest, I grew up with this ideaof like, it you know, you Everyonedeserves respect until they show youthey don't.And then you withdraw it.ButI've always started from that positionoflike, if I want something, if I wanthelp with something,you can't demand it. You can't demandit. It has to be something that you have

46:10 to find people that are willing to togive it. You have to listen. We spend somuch time talking and there aren'tactually that many people that listen.It's really difficult for me to giveadvice because what do I know?>> And I understand that because both of ushave created our own paths.>> I don't process as it's happening. Iprocess afterwards. So I'm always ontothe next thing, onto the next thing,onto the next thing.>> What's next? What's next?>> I think some of that some of the thingthat drives me to do that is that I amscared of standing still. I'm scared ofbecoming complacentbecause I I have this mantra in my headof um

46:53 Again, my mother, she did a job. Um youknow, be nice to everyone you meet onthe way up because you meet them againon the way down.>> on.>> And I think that would be the advicethat I'd give. Whatever path you'retreading and nobody is suggesting it'seasy.Butif it's if it's if it's really what youwant to do, find a way. There is a way.It's not going to be an easy way. It'sgoing to be a hard way. But find a wayand everyone you meet on your way, benice to them. It costs nothing to benice. You never know what somebody's gotgoing on. Just making them a cup of tea,being you know, a kind word, a smile, a

47:37 chat. All of those things and being alittle bit considerate of other people'sfeelings are the things actually thatwill project you further than you wouldever imagine. And then be prepared thatat some point you will come down thatladder.>> Getting [laughter] enough.>> It's all a massive game of snakes andladders, isn't it?>> Dr. Siobhan Stevenson, can I thank youfor joining me today for enlighteningus, for sharing your story with us andyour life? And can I congratulate you onyour achievements?>> Thank you.>> And wish you all the very best in thefuture. Have you got a website or ifpeople want to contact you, what canthey do?>> People can get hold of me throughInstagram. I'm on Instagram at Well, Ihaven't spelt my full name out because

48:20 Instagram doesn't like my full name. So,but you'll find me on Instagram. Justlook for S B H N Stevenson and you'llfind me.>> And the website is?>> siobhanstevenson.com>> And how do we spell Siobhan?>> S I O B H I fada N.>> And the fada is like an acute accent.>> Yeah, it's kind of over the I and itchanges the whole sound to Vaughn.I've reclaimed my fada recently.>> Good luck.>> Thanks.