Robin Campbell

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0:00 Everyone else thought it was a dreadfulplace to live. We thought it wasparadise. All kinds of cultures, allkinds of food. We were listening to popmusic before that. Then reggae happenedandI kind of just forgot everything else.By the third gig, there was a queueround round the block, you know,literally there were more people outsidethan there were inside the pub. AndChrissie Hynde saw us playing at one ofthose venues. She came backstage andsaid, "I want you on my tour."Hello and welcome to our lives, ourstories. I'm Carl Chinn and this week,as usual, we're delving into thebackground of our guest, finding outwhat motivates them, what their hopes

0:44 and dreams are and where they're goingin the future. And I'm chuffed to sayhello to a Birmingham legend. Well,actually, not only a Birmingham legend,but a reggae legend, Robin Campbell.Thank you for joining us, Robin. Thanksfor having me, Carl. Wonderful to seeyou again. Now, you you like this placewhere we have these sessions, Nortons,cuz we're in this little snug at Nortonsand tell us why you like>> Because this is his whiskey land.>> [laughter]>> And uhmy dad brought me up on whiskey, so I uhdeveloped a taste for it, but also, muchto my father's chagrin,Irish whiskey became my favorite.>> Oh, and your dad's a Scotsman?Absolutely. He used to go and do toursof the malts. Did he? Distilleries and

1:27 stuff, yeah, in Scotland. Big Scotchfan, big malt whiskey fan. But uhHe got He got into Irish whiskeys aswell. He liked Irish whiskeys. But hedidn't like the fact that my favoritewas an Irish whiskey.Now, that leads me into talking aboutyour mom and dad, your backgroundgrowing up in Balsall Heath. Let's havea chat about that. Well, originally, umI was born in Dudley Road Hospital and Igrewup my first years were in um Hockley inthe Jewellery Quarter>> Right. because my dad was an engraverYeah. who actually he was the headengraver in a factory called Carvers, Ithink.Long time ago, but uh yeah, he was thehead engraver and he worked on the Lord

2:10 Mayor's chain, believe it or not.>> Did he? Yeah. In the '60s. UmSo, yeah, I I grew up there first of alland then I think when I was eight, wemoved to Balsall Heath. Our firstcouncil house we got in Balsall Heath,opposite the park, Calthorpe Park. So,for us, it was uh everyone else thoughtit was a dreadful place to live. Wethought it was paradise because we livedopposite a park and it was just aI loved it. I loved growing up there. Iloved the the cultural mix, you know,the melting pot that it was. And it wasa melting pot. There was English, therewas Irish, there African Caribbean,there were Yemenis and then South Asianpeople starting to move in.

2:52 >> Mm. Absolutely. It wasThere was all kinds of cultures, allkinds of food, you know. We were eatingIndian food before anybody else was, youknow. People were going, "What? You eatIndian food?"To us, that was It was normal. Baltiswere invented in Birmingham, you know,by the Pakistanis.That was That was just a normal Myparents used to take us, you know,almost weeklyfor a balti.And that was In those days, you didn'tget knives and forks. You just got abowl and chapatis and>> Yeah, with a naan bread. Exactly, or anaan, yeah.>> Do you remember Hockley?Yeah, I remember I mean, I was eightwhen I moved, but I'm amazed at what I

3:35 can remember. I went to uhjunior school there, St. Paul's.>> St. Paul's, yeah, which was a churchschool. That's right, yeah. Church ofEngland school. And that was literally awalk down the road from where I was. Welived in a a flat above uhCartwright's newsagents and uh acrossthe road from the fire station. So, youwere right in the heart of the JewelleryQuarter, in what is now Dayus Square.Yeah. Now, you'd have to caffeine dayswho wrote that grow up in poverty aroundthere. Yeah.And yeah, it was certainly apoverty-stricken area,uh which is why we were chuffed to getout of it, you know, get into cuz it wasall factories and stuff.And uma bit dismal, you know, and gray.

4:19 But moving out to Balsall Heath for uswas paradise because we were opposite abig green park and it was lovely. Youcould play football and ride your bikeevery day and>> So, what street was it you were in?Speedwell Road.Which was literally you know, umran the length of the park.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> And uh it had a notorious red-lightdistrict, yeah. Varna Road and PrincessRoad were the two roads off Speedwelland we were in between there, you know.I had uhunderneath I'm sorry, I had the top ofthe house, the council house. Underneathus was an Irish family called theKellys.>> Yes.On the uh right was an Indian family,Singhs, and on the left of us was aHippolyte yeah, and

5:02 that was, you know, that was BalsallHeath in a nutshell, you And you'reright what you said earlier on,unfortunately, Balsall Heath, Sparkbrookgot bad reputations, but for you, yousaw a completely different side of thedistrict.>> Absolutely, I loved it. I really lovedit and so did all the other guys in theband. We all grew up in and around thesame area and umyeah, we all had the same relationshipwith the area. We We just loved it. Thefact that we were growing up surroundedby different musics and differentcultures anddifferent foods and, you know,for us, that was It was every day was aneducation, you What school did you goto, yeah?>> St. Luke's, which was just off BelgraveRoad.

5:43 >> Yeah, just across That's it. from whereyou were.From the police station. Belgrave policestation was on the other side of theroad and we were just literally a walkup the road.It was one bus stop, yeah, umto the park. Did you like school? Ithink I I loved the school I went to. Ithink I loved St. Luke's. I was onlythere for three years. Passed my 11 plusand I passed the art exam as well, whichI cuz I wanted to go to Moseley Road ArtSchool.>> Yeah. But my parents didn't like theheadmaster there, so I couldn't go. Iended up going to a grammar school thatI hated with a passion.Uh George Dixon's and it was a bit of ajoyless>> I mean, you're looking at the borders ofof Edgbaston, Rotton Park and Smethwickthere, aren't they? Yeah.

6:26 Yeah, and I I didn't enjoy that one bit.I mean, I I probably did for the firstyear,but I just didn't like thethe whole atmosphere there was as ifthey were grooming you to run thecountry, you know. You were spoken aboutlike you were the cream of the crop,etc., just because you passed your 11plus, you know, and I justI found it all very uncomfortable.>> I went to Moseley Grammar. It was a bitdifferent cuz there was a lot more fromour background. I wish I'd gone toMoseley Grammar. That for me would havebeen more toned down and local. And andit was what I remember in MoseleyGrammar was mainly a lot ofworking-class kids, lower middle-classkids. It wasn't really what we wouldcall posh kids there. Yeah, there were alot of posh kids at George Dixon's. So,

7:09 talk to me a bit then about the arts.When did you first start to fall in lovewith arts? Well, I'd always been umcreative. IWhen weat the school of St. Luke's, before Iwent to secondary school, I was alwaysthe one that painted the Christmasfreezeand that kind of stuff. UhI enjoyed drawing and painting and thatkind of stuff right from an early age,uh encouraged by my parents.>> Yeah. My mom especially, cuz she shewent to art school as well.>> Yeah.Um her art school wasuh in Moseley Street. In Moseley Street?>> Just off Bradford Street. There was anart school there, art college that shewent to. Um

7:52 So, yeah, she encouraged it and Ithought I was going to go to art schooland continue doing something creative,you know, and probably do somethingcreative when Ileft school.But uh I ended up going to grammarschool and both of my younger brotherswent to the art school that I wanted togo to.>> It's not fair, Robin.>> outraged.>> [laughter]>> Let Let's talk a bit about your mom anddad. Was your mom a Brummie?Yeah.My mom was born and brought up in umGreat Barr. Yeah.Um and my dad, of course, was umAberdonian.Um and he moved down here with hisfamily when he was 13, I think.

8:35 That must have been a big change for himcuz they speak the Doric in Aberdeen,don't they? Just after the war, he camedownuh as a young teenager because his dad,my granddad, was was very active in theuh in the union. He He worked in theshipbuildingand uh he was very active in the union.He ended up gettinguhblacklisted. Yeah.So, he couldn't get a job. He couldn'tget any work in Aberdeen, so he had tocome downto to find work. And is that what ledyour dad into radical politics and andmusic?>> I think he was he was brought up, uh youknow, with a very much a socialistattitude, trade union attitude, youknow, working class. So, yeah, I think

9:20 he washe was very political. I mean, I'm surein the in the '50s when they were young,both my parents joined the CommunistParty.Not for long. I think they quicklychanged their minds, but they they were>> Well, I I think the Hungarian uprisingof '56 made a lot of people like yourmom and dad leave the Communist Partywhen the Soviets went in, when theHungarian leaders were trying to makethings a bit better. What was your mom'sname? Pat and her maiden name wasWeaver.Did you know her family well?Um not all of them,but I knew her parents, you know,umand her sisterwho I still see now and her kids, you

10:03 know, I'm still in touch with with them.But, uh I didn't know muchothers of the family becauseumsome of them lived elsewhere.What about Aberdeen? Did you go up toAberdeen to see your dad's family?No. I used to seefamily>> Yeah. that came down to Birmingham tovisit my grandparents. I would see them,but uh no, I never traveled up toScotland to see, not until I was in aband did I go to Scotland. Oh, no,that's not true. My dad took me toScotland oncewhen I was about 13, I think.Your dad was not only a highly skilledman, uh a working-class radical, he wasfamed as a folk musician, Ian Campbell.

10:47 Yeah, well, the whole the folkmusic revival started in the '60s and uhmy dad was very much a part of that. Andhe formed the Ian Campbell Folk Groupwith his sister, Lorna.And umyeah, they werevery successful in the in the '60s,'70s.Uh and they ran a folk club inBirmingham at The Jug of Punch>> Yeah. uh at Digbeth Civic Hall.>> Yeah.Um which was at one timethe biggest folk club in Europe.>> Yeah. You know, it was it was massive.Did his musical influences affect you?Definitely they affected me. I mean, I Iwas surrounded by music and musiciansfrom a from a tot, you know, I've been

11:31 surrounded by and listened to all sortsof musicians because of my dad.But, uhmuch to his disappointmentyou know, we got turned on to Jamaicanmusic in Balsall Heath where we werelivingI was listening to Jamaican music beforeit was reggae, you know, when it wasPrince Buster and all that, you know.>> And then it turned into reggae and thatwas we all as as a gang of mates, all ofit roughly the same age, we all fell inlove with the music, you know, that tookover for us. We were listening to popmusic before that, The Beatles and youknow, plus American R&B, Tamla Motown,Stax, all that kind of stuff. Uh

12:14 I was a massive Stevie Wonder fan, AlGreen.Brilliant. All sorts, Sam Cooke, youknow, Otis Redding, loved all of thatstuff and then reggae happened andI kind of just forgot everything else.Even though Iobviously was still hearing stuff andstill buying other records, but reggaebecameour first love for all of us. What wasit about reggae? I have no idea. It justTo me at the age of what what was I whenreggae happened, 13 or something, youknow, it was to me it wasthe sexiest music there was, you know.While Istill loved other forms of music, reggaewas just it was so new and different and>> opposing rhythms, you know, that whole

12:58 offbeat thing.It was like ska, but it was slowed down.Yeah. You know, just for me it justbecamethe sexiest music, you know. I thinkwe're about the same age. I was born in'56.I think you're about the same, a bityounger than me. I'm a little bit olderthan You are. Good. Yes, I am. So, butwe were I think, and people can correctme if I'm wrong, the firstgeneration of white kids that fell inlove with really reggae music, skabeforehand.Absolutely. Absolutely. We were thefirst generation. In fact, I was goingto George Dixon's uh grammar schooland I would take records in thereand they'd be going, "What's that?" What

13:42 were you And they're listening to Idon't know, prog rock or something.>> Yeah. You know, and and also of coursethere was otheruh other kinds of music in Birmingham,there was heavy metal, the whole>> Yeah. you know. Uh Black Sabbath andZeppelin and all of that kind of stuffwas was happening. But, uh I'd play themmy reggae records and they'd just begoing, "Where'd you get that from?"But, to me it was everywhere. I remembergetting the first Cherry Oh Baby single.And do you remember we used to have theold-fashioned record players? You had toput something that the records were I'dgot a hole in the middle. The discjukebox. That's it. Yeah, that's wherethe center is.>> Where do I get that center from? I hadto go up to Oasis Markets, I think, toget one.

14:23 >> [laughter]>> Yeah, I used to do that as well.Turntable with no middle. Just yeah, usethe cuz you could get your jukebox onescheap, couldn't you? Yeah, and they'dbeen in the jukebox. You could get themforwhatever it was, 50 p or something.>> Then there was a famous reggae recordstore down The Lane, the Ladypool Road.On the Ladypool Road, yeah. DonChristie's was the place to go and getyour reggae from. He also had a store inthe Birmingham Market.>> he? I didn't know that. I used to go inthere as well because sometimesitit was difficult to get served in theLadypool Road one cuz it'd be so manypeople there. It was packed out. It waslike a blues party, you know, the musicwould just be throbbing away and peoplewould be

15:05 filling the place and occasionallysomeone would go"I'll have acopy of that." You know, cuz he'd justget playing record the newest stuff andpeople go, "I'll have that one." Youknow. And it was right down by thejunction with the Highgate Road, wasn'tit? Yeah, but it was hard it was hard toumsometimes it was hard to get just getinto the shop, you know, cuz it was justfull of people, but you could go down tothe one in the markets and it'd beI wish I'd have known that cuz I used towe had Betty's Chips on the LadypoolRoad, so I used to work in there and Iwent down to Don Christie's a few timesto get in, but I could neverget in. There you go.>> [laughter]>> And I didn't know about the one up themarkets, but I couldn't have got thereworking Saturdays anyway.No, it was uh it was only open on theSaturday, I think.

15:46 >> Yeah. So, you're at grammar school,you're into reggae music. Are your matesthe same as you?A couple of them. There were a couple ofkids that went to the school. I mean,there were a a few black kids in theschool and there werea few kids that were open to you know,other musics.Um but they were few and far between. Iremember one of my best pals atuhgrammar school was Ben, Ben Morbey.And uh yeah, he loved he loved reggaerecords. Still a fan of the band aswell. Is he? Yeah. Did did you ever goand go up town to like the Top Rank, theCarlton, places like that?Yeah, but not that often. I mean, I usedto go

16:27 clubbing it. So, I was going to thefutural clubs, you know.>> Always Cedar Club? Not the Cedar, thatwas a bit too early for me.>> Rebecca's? I did go to the Cedar. I wentto Barbarella's as well, but Rebecca'swas my haunt. Yeah. And uh I used to goI don't know,four or five nights a week. It wasridiculous. And they had three levelsthere, didn't they?>> our local pub. Yeah, and the Sin Bin,which was the downstairs one, was whereyou got your reggae. Yeah.Yeah. So, I virtually lived in the SinBin.>> Yeah. I I was a Top Rank kid. I lovedthe Top Rank. Uh and they played loadsof Tamla. We never called it Motown. No.It was Tamla, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Andreggae, but then we would go toRebecca's when it opened up because theSin Bin was our music. I mean, there wasreggae,

17:10 uh you know, you could see reggaeartists in the Top Rank even, you know.Possibly the first place I ever saw areggae artist would have been the TopRank unless it wasuhmhm it might have been Rebecca's cuzthere were you I saw a few artists,Johnny Nash or something. Did you? Yeah,in Rebecca's. Oh, that must have been athrill. It was brilliant. Yeah.>> [laughter]>> Did you leave grammar school at 16 assoon as you can? Yeah. I got thatimpression.>> Yeah, I was hating every second of it.Um I actually asked for a transferwhich they gladly gave me cuz they werevery tired of merefusing to do any work. So, they gaveme a transfer and then when I tried toget in other schools

17:53 the headmaster of George Dixon's writtena letter saying, "Please don't take thiskid into your school. He's a verydisruptive in Oh, no.So, I couldn't get inAll I wanted to do was get into a schoolto take my exams because I never took anO level. Yeah.And uh I just wanted to take those toget qualifications, you know.Uh any school would have done, MoseleyGrammar or anybody and none of themwould have me. So, what was your mom anddad's feelings at this stage knowingthat it was a mistake for you to go toGeorge Dixon?Well, I think I think they they alreadyknew that. They knew that that wasn't agood idea. My older brother was atGeorge Dixon's as well and I think hegot expelled. You know, it wasn't uh wedidn't have a great experience there and

18:38 I think they knew that it wasn't a greatidea because especially the two youngerbrothers were having such a great timeat Moseley Road Art School and we werejealous of them, you know. So,yeah, they they knew that it was amistake, but it was too late kind ofthing, you know. Talk to me about thenyour first job. What was it? How did youget it?I went toHarrison's Brass Foundry and applied foran apprenticeship. Just across the roadin Bradford Street? In Bradford Street,yeah. So, it was umuh toolmaker. I went I went to get jobswent for an interview and did aa basicwritten testwhich was very easy, so I got the job.And uh yeah, I served my apprenticeship

19:22 at Harrison'sand then walked away from thatbecause all my mates were working on thebuilding sites earning a lot more moneythan me.Cuz apprenticeships were paid woefulmoney.>> Yeah.And uh even thoughHarrison's probably paid the bestapprentice wages in the Midlands at thetime, when I was going to technicalcollege we had to go to Hall Green Techonce a week. So, I used to do dayrelease in Hall Green Tech and umwhen I used to talk to other guys whowere doing the same thing,apprenticeship as me, they were allearning less money than me, and I wasthe youngest kid in the college.>> Yeah.So, you know, I was actually quitewell-off for an apprentice, but not

20:04 well-off enough for me, cuz all my mateswere, as I say, working on the buildingsand earningfour or five times what I was earning.>> Yeah, but this is when there was moneyon the building sites, the days of thelump, when you were getting cash inhand.>> Exactly. You'd go and stand outside theMermaid.>> Yeah, and did you do that?>> Yeah.>> [laughter]>> Now, let's explain to people not fromBirmingham. The Mermaid was a big pub inon the edge of Sparkhill and Sparkbrook,junction [snorts] of Warwick Road andStratford Road,where there were lots of Irish living,and a lot of the Irish lads would standthere early in the morning, 6:00, 6:30,waiting for the subcontractors to comealong. I'll have you. I'll have you. Andyou were one of those chosen. Yeah, I'djust go and stand there, and they'd pullup in their van,

20:47 and I'd be the only one left.>> [laughter]>> They'd go, "You want some work?" "Yes,please."And then, once you got known, and you'ddone a few different jobs, you know,you'd get permanent work on a on a sitethat was, you know,there for years.But,I only worked for one summer.Literally.>> I know what's coming. I was having agreat time in the summer, thinking,"This is fabulous, and I'm earning goodmoney, and hanging out with my mates. Icould afford to go clubbing four or fivenights a week."And uhthen the winter came,and I thought, "This is a mug's game.Why am I doing this?" Cuz it washorrendous.And uhIdawned on me that you've got to take one

21:31 to do the other. So, I gave that up, andwent and got a job at umBritish Leyland. At Longbridge? Yeah, atLongbridge. II did a few other jobs in between,but basically,I ended up at Longbridge with a mate ofmine who'd got a job there, and he said,"Come and work at Longbridge.If you can get in, it's for life, youknow."And he got me an interview. I don't knowhow, but he got me an interview. I wentthere and got got the job as a setteroperator on a multi-spindle capstanlathe.>> God, you were skilled man. And uh well,cuz I'd served an apprenticeship,it was easy, you know.And uh basically, I I was setting my own

22:14 machine up. You're supposed to be anoperator and have a setter come and doit, but I ended up doing my own setting,because I knew what I was doing. Allthem tool making skills came in sohandy.>> Exactly, yeah. And I was [clears throat]there for a year,and the I was working nights, and uh I'dbeen up for about 3 months, and theforeman, whosort of took me under his wing,came and said, "I'm retiring. You canhave the job if you want it."I'll I'll recommended you, so the job'syours if you want it. And we were justbreaking up for our summer holidays.And uhI was like, "Are you sure?" It was,you know, I mean, I was literally stillin my very early 20s.And umhe said, "The job's yours." And Ithought, "If I take it, I'm here for

22:58 life. I really don't think I can dothis."I was scared, really, of of thecommitment and and being bored out of mymind, you know.And we kept talking about forming aband, and had been since we were kids.And I just thought, "Okay, I'm going togive this job up, andgo and get Ali, and make him form theband, you know, let's stop>> That's what I thought. Stop talkingabout it.And yeah, it still took him a while.Took another 6 months or something. Uhand then he got some injury compensationmoney, which allowed him to buy himselfa guitar. Right. So, he said, "Okay,let's do it." And that was it. We formeda band. So, all this time you're atwork, reggae's your your passion, you'regoing to Rebecca's as often as you can.

23:43 And blues parties.>> And blues parties. Explain what a bluesparty was. Well, it was the Jamaicansmaking their own entertainment,basically, cuz cuz they weren't getting,I mean, some of the places operatedcolor bars in the city center, you know.So,they weren't gettingumthe entertainment, so they created theirown. And they would take over derelicthousesinin Balsall Heath,mostly.And um of course, other areas likeHandsworth, but where I lived,there were there was a blues everycouple of weeks, andthey'd take over a party, and they'd putin loads of loudspeakers, giantloudspeakers. You could stand inside.Um that created, you know, enormousbass. Yeah. And you could hear a blues

24:27 party fromblocks away, you know.And uh yeah, that was I I think my firstblues party I went to, I was about 13.And my Auntie Vi had a lodging house inTrafalgar Road, and her husband,obviously Auntie Vi was white, shemarried me Uncle Johnny Brown from PortAntonio in the early '50s, when not manywhite girls would marry in yeah, blackguys. And she used to have what werethen called shebeens, Yeah.the the latest blues parties. And uh Iremember Uncle Johnny coming back withbluebeat records, Bluebeat. which youcan start to hear the beginnings of skaand reggae in them, can't you?>> Absolutely, yeah, yeah.So, there's you and your younger brotherAli, that are reggae mad. Are there anyothers that you're thinking of joiningto this band with? Oh, yeah. All All the

25:10 original members,umEarl, and Jimmy, and Brian,all went to Moseley Road Art School withDuncan and Ali.Duncan was supposed to join the band.That's the brother between me and Ali.He was supposed to join.And when we formed the band, and we wewent, "Come on, you know, come and joinus." He was going, "Uh it's not going tohappen, is it, you know?" [laughter]And we were going, "Come We're serious.We're going to do it. We're going totake it serious. We're going to do it."And he hadbecome a croupier. Well, at the MidlandWheel, or somewhere like that. Oh, Ican't It would have been It wasn't theMidland Wheel.>> No. It was the one in city center.>> Oh, I know the one you mean, yeah. Iforget Dolce Vita. Yes. Dolce Vita. The

25:54 Dolce Vita, which had a little club aswell. It was a casino in there.And that was where he trained, andbecame a croupier, and then he just hetraveled. He went to He opened the firstcasino in Barbados.>> Did he? And he was enjoying himself, andearning decent money, so he just said,"I'll leave it. Thanks, lads."And regretted it the rest of his life.Still does. Oh, God love him. No, youmean, he joined years later, you know,and and got to live the dream for awhile.>> he did it for a while.So, have you gothave you got instruments? Who's doingwhat? Well, uhagain, our father, if you showed anyinterest in any instrument of any kind,you would be thrust into your handswithin

26:36 minutes, you know.Uh I mean, my dad used to makeinstruments, you know. Made a squarebanjo. He did all sorts of things, yeah.>> And guitars, andum so, yeah, I showed interest in theguitar, andwithin a few days, he got me a guitar,and said, "Here you are, son. And here'syour Uncle Brian," which was um myAuntie Lorna's husband.Umand he was the guitarist in the band, inmy dad's group. So, he gave me guitarlessons, andso, by, you know,10 or 11 years old, I was playing an anacoustic guitar.So, I wasI was the only one, I think, thatactually played an instrument.

27:19 >> Yeah. Uh all the rest of them weretalking about it, you know, and allsaying, "I'm going to do it." And whenwe did,everybody basically bought their owninstruments, you know. Brian had a sax.He'd already bought a sax.>> Did his dad get it him? He said, "Yeah."And heHe said umum I think Earl's dad as well signed theguarantor for him to buy a second-handbass, you know, on credit.And uh yeah, everybody bought aninstrument. Norman went and bought hisfirst set of congasoff a drug addict. And umyeah, everybody bought theirinstruments, and and basicallygot together in a room, and all startedto make a horrendous noise, becausenobody could play any instruments. So,

28:04 it wasyou know, it's me trying to teach peoplechords,and nobody listening.So, where did you have this room? Umuh the Well, the first place we went towas umMidlands Arts Centre in Cannon Hill.Gotcha. We got a room there.UmandYeah.I had a mini van at the time, so we Itransported the drum kits and everythingdown there, and the amps and stuff, inthe back half a dozen differentjourneys.Uh transported it all down there, and weall and we set up, and then we started,and it was just a nightmare.And because nobody was playing together,you know. And I was going, "Guys, guys,

28:45 we've got to do this together, youknow." And Yeah, yeah.So,I walked away at that point, saying,the same as Duncan, "It's not going tohappen, is it, you know? You're all abunch of idiots. I'mI'm done.">> I'm trapping.So, I did leave uh for a few months,andEarl, Jimmy, and Alipracticed in a room underneath Earl'sflat in Trafalgar Road.>> Really? Yeah. They had a cellar.And they went down there, and they setup, and they played every day. They justcopied records. They had half a dozenreggae records that they'd copied,learned to play,literally parrot fashion, you know.

29:29 And uh and then, once they were doingthat, they started to make their ownmusic. And then,uh Aliuh came and found meuh where I was working at the time, andhe said uhcome and have a listen.We're actually We're making music now.We're actually sounding Yeah, good.And I went, "All right, then." So,I was humoring him, I thought, you know.And I went down and I was actuallyshocked at how good they sounded.They were They were making what soundedlike music from the previous, you know,literally a few months, 3 monthsearlier, they were dreadful.And now they were making stuff thatsounded like music, I promise, you know.And I got all excited and I went, "Okay,

30:13 I'm in."And that was that, then? Yeah. AndBrian, of course, came with hissaxophone and Norman came with hiscongas and, you know,we had a a guy uh the original keyboardplayer was a guy called Jimmy Lynn wholeft fairly quickly cuz the progress wastoo slow for him.Uhand then we we wrote Mickey in.UmSo, yeah, that was That was it,basically. The gang that went on theroad and an African guy called Yummy,Nigerian guy called Yummy, who was theother percussionist.Uh whose dad was a Nigerian princeandtook him out of the band and said,"That's not what you're doing in That'snot what you're in England for. Go andget your qualifications."

30:57 And we still see him. He's still a goodfriend. How were you getting bymoney-wise at this stage? On the dole.That's what we called ourselves UB40 cuzwe all had a UB40 card, you know, whichwas the the ID card witha UB40 form. It was called the UB40form.So,it was basically your ID card with yourname and your actual insurance number,etc. And it's what you presented everyweek when you signed on to say that youwere unemployed. And we must embed thiswithin the context of what's happening.You leave British Leyland about 1980.78.>> 78. And then what happens to BritishLeyland? Literally a By a year after I'dleft, it was decimated. When I When I

31:39 left, there were 40,000 people workedthere. It was like the population ofRedditchworked in Longbridge. Um Yeah, it was40,000 and then a year later, I think itwas down to 8,000. And that wasThatcher's Britain.And whatever your politics,manufacturing was destroyed or butdestroyed in the in the '80s and westill need to recover that manufacturingspirit. Yeah.Don't know if it's ever going to happen,but I agree.So, you've got the band started.You're on the dole. Mhm. It's anexpensive game being musicians. You'retrying to travel. Where are you gettinggigs?Just pubs and clubs, really. I mean, wewe were doing We're doing local pubs,

32:23 occasionally traveling out ofBirmingham. We played a Wolverhamptonclub. Uhwe played the Porter House in Redditch acouple of times, various places.And we just spent the first year, Ithink we probably did30 gigs in the first year,which is, you know, just better than onea fortnight.You know, uh but that's all we couldafford, you know. We'dwe would uh club together and get a aLuton van and drive ourselves towherever we were going, you know.And uhyeah, that was literally all all wecould do.Umbut thenwe were getting a reputation veryquickly. We were building a following

33:05 and we did um we did the New Inns up onthe on Bristol Street, you know, the topof>> Other corner of the Moseley Road.>> That's right. Yeah. Big pub. Yeah. Andwe did uma residency therefor only a few months, but we played itonce a month and we advertised it in andaround Moseley and stuff. And by thethird gig, there was a queue round roundthe block, you know. Literally, therewere more people outside than there wereinside the pub and the pub was heaving.So, that was how quickly it washappening for us. The following we weregetting, the interest we were gettingfrom people was incredible and reallyquick.Uh and yeah, we spent a yearjust building our reputation and and

33:50 going further and further afield. Andthen we went to London for our firstmini tour and playedthe 101 Club and, you know, variousothervenues. UmAnd Chrissie Hynde saw us playing at oneof those venues.Literally,you know, a year into our playingcareer,she she came cuz she said someone hadsaid you must comesee these kids, they're great.And she came to the one of the places wewere playing in London and she camebackstage and said, "I want you on mytour." Fantastic.>> She had a sold-out tour,a UK tour that was already sold out. So,any band would have paid a fortune to

34:33 get on the tour.Any record company would have paid afortune to get their band on the tour.So, then her management were fumingbecause she said, "I want them." And wewere going, "We can't affordWe can't afford to buy ourselves ontothe tour. We've got no no album,no label support or anything like that.We're literally on our own and we don'thave a penny.But if you want us, we'll get ittogether to come, you know, but we can'tafford to buy our way onto the tour."And she said, "I don't care. I want Iwant these guys on the tour." So, thatwas it. That was wonderful of her,wasn't it? Absolutely. She launched ourcareers, literally. Sheuh from, you know, playing pubs andclubs, various pubs and clubs around the

35:17 country, we suddenly went to playingsold-out tour. Birmingham wasBirmingham Top Rank,which was sold out. It was heaving.There were a few thousand people inthere, you know. And it was uhit was phenomenal. And everywhere wewent,it was a sold-out tour. She had a numberone album and single at the time, Brassin Pocket.So,it she was already sold out. So, for us,we were playing to sold-out audiencesthat wasn't even our audience, but theyloved us, you know. We released a singlewhile we were on that tour, our veryfirst single we releasedon that tour and we finished the tour 6weeks later, we were number four in thecharts.So, it was like

36:00 So, was you got a record deal by then?Yeah. We'd We'd got an independentrecord deal,but no tour support or anything likethat. He He came to us, guy ownedGraduate Records.Um and he came He came to us and said,"I'll pay for the making of the recordand I'll split it with you 50/50."So,you know,umthat's the best deal I can give you. Wewere looking at other deals because wehad got interest. There were recordcompanies offering us, but all the dealswere lousy.Andwe just kept sticking to our guns andturning them down, you know.Uh and that was mostly because of advicefrom my dad who was going, "Don't takethat. That's rubbish, you

36:43 UmAnd yeah, a guy came to us and said,"I'll pay whatever it costs you to makethis album.I'll I'll pay the bill and I'll I'llsplit whatever we make with you 50/50."And we went, "You've got a deal." You'vegot a deal. What was that album and whatwas the number four hit?Uh well, our first single was Food forThought. Uhit was a double A-side with King King onthe other side cuz we had didn't knowwhich one was would be the popular trackand we thought it might be King. Itturned out to be Food for Thought, so uhyeah, that was the first single.Uhoff the album that wasn't even releasedat that cuz we were still recording it,you know. Um and that became the albumSigning Off.

37:26 And obviously, it was called Signing Offbecause we weren't signing on anymore.During this time when you're traveling,you haven't got much money coming in, ifif that probably just enough to get by,there was a a guy called David Cox orsomething that was very important toyou. Dave Cox, yeah.He was wonderful guy. He was uh he was areal fan.He owned the butcher's shop in MoseleyVillage,Cox's.And uhBrian, our sax player, worked for him asaHe had a Saturday job in Dave Cox'splace, so he became a friend with Dave.Uh Dave became a fan of the band. We Weused to umwe used to rehearse We filmed round the

38:09 back of his shop.>> Yeah. Uh our very first kind of videotype thing we did round the back of hisshop. Umhe was very supportive andwhen we got the Chrissie Hynde tour, wehadn't gottwo ha'pennies to rub together and hejust said, "How much do you need?"And, you know, we just Whatever the billwas, we'd go to Dave and say,"Can you cover this?" And he just keptkept paying the bills.And uh that was, you know, hiring ofuh transport and hotels, bed andbreakfasts or whatever, you know.Just the the cost of actually going on a6-week tour with the Pretenders was forus astronomical, you know. And we justdidn't have the money to do it and Dave,

38:54 our benefactor,just kepthanding money over and saying, "Give itto me when you got it. I know you'll getit. Give it me when you've got it." Andhe just keptAnd I I think by the timeExcuse me. By the time we umwe paid him backwhen we got our first check fromGraduate Records,umwe owed him, I think, uh 70 grand.Andwe paid him back with the very firstcheck, which I think was 70 grand. So,we gave him our entire check. And he wasgoing, "No, just give me a bit of it,you know. You can pay me the restlater." And we just went,"We want you to have it. We might neverearn another penny, you know. We want

39:36 you to havethe all the money you've given usbecause his support was incredible."That was a huge sum of money in themdays. Oh, 70 granduh in 1980, you know, is Hundreds ofthousands of that.>> Hundreds of thousands, yeah. Are youstill in touch with him?Yeah, I'll still see him. Not Not thatoften, but occasionally he will turn upin places like the Hare and Hounds inKing's Heath. Yeah, if you're going tosee somebody, see an act, cuz it's agreat live venue still.Um you know, you might go there or wehave occasional parties and thingsthere, you know, and Dave will turn up.Weren't you I suppose you're lookingback now, but you were fortunate to haveDave. You were fortunate that ChrissieHynde fell in love with your music. It

40:20 Every Everything is is luck, you know.People say, "How did you do that?" and"How did you do that?" We don't know howwe did it. We just did it, you know, andwe were fortunate to haveumthe love and support of some fabulouspeople. And your dad as well with hisadvice.Oh, for sure. Yeah.Yeah, he was uhhe was alwaysexplaining to me how publishing workedand you know, the kind of deals. And weended up with with great deals becauseof his advice. What happens after theChrissie Hynde tour? Did you stay intouch with her?Yeah, we've always Well,we've made several records[clears throat] with her since over theyears, but yeah, on that tour she usedto say to us, "We ought to do a record

41:03 together, you know,uh you know, with with my looks and yourvoice, we could have a hit, you know,and all that."And uhor with my voice and your looks. I don'tknow which one it was, really.But umyeah, she she was she was great andshe was ahard-working musician herself, you know,so she they were touringand we wouldwe never get together because we'realways both touring and we'doccasionally cross paths and go, "We'vegot to make that record." Yeah, yeah,yeah.And then a a few years lateruh we put our own studio together inBirmingham and we had the Abattoir.Umso we invited her to come and it it tookWhen did we I think '85 was the first

41:48 record we made with her. So, it was 5years later before we actually gottogether in a studio and did uh I've GotYou Babe. Which was a massive hit.Number one.I want to take you back a little bitbefore that because uhyou bring out As You Were 40, I Am a Onein Ten. Mhm. Talk me through thatrecord, please.Well, that was Jimmy's song and it wasit's it's basically a song aboutunemployment. It's a song about umwell, all the different statistics. It'sa list of statistics ofuh you know, um unfortunatepeople in unfortunate settings. Andyeah, it was just his his list, really,of uh

42:32 all the different people being ignoredby society, you know, and umYeah, that was that was on the secondalbum.And that was umprobablyprobably the best hit off that album, Ithink. It resonated with me becauseafter we sold our betting shops in '84,I was one of the one in ten. Yeah. Andit was so bleak when you sign on. It'sit's a humiliatingexperience. And I just thought eventhough a couple years later got medoctor, thought, "Where am I going to goin now?" Cuz I couldn't get work in afactory. You're overqualified. You know,couldn't get on the building cuz I'mcocky and I'm bringing probably bustedstuff. But um it was a powerful powerfulrecord for many of us.

43:15 Yeah.Itabsolutely rang true for so many people.Yeah, it was uhIt was a powerful song and Jimmy tendsto do that. He's he's a good lyricist.Always has been.But uh yeah, that's the song that stillresonates with people and it's stilljust as relevant today as it was then,you know. And what was the album again?Present Arms. Yeah. Which was obviouslyaIt's uman anti-military Yeah.>> song.And we used to play thatin places like Germany where80% of the audience would be Englishsquaddies. Squaddies. Yeah. And theyloved Present Arms.And they loved what it said, you know.Right, you've got the

43:58 I'm you're on the road now. You've gotyou've made it or did you think you'dmade it?>> Well, it happened so quickly for us. Wewere just kind of in shock, you know,because we just kept releasing singlesand they kept being hits.And uh you know,I just kept waiting for the bubble toburst, you know, just kept thinking,"This can't This can't last. This reallycan't last cuzyou know, most bands have a few hitsingles and then and then disappear, youknow.They Their successis short-lived almost always. I mean,there are bands thatare lucky and you know, get somelongevity, but we were expecting

44:41 a few years at best.And I don't think any of us had any ideathat we'd still be doing it 40-odd yearslater. And with hindsight, what wouldyou now say that you would attributethat longevity to, Robin?It's It's difficult.I think we had a unique sound and Ithink all bands that last a long timeare immediately recognizable. They havea sound that is immediately recognizableuh to their fans, you know. It's a soundthat has aa fan base that loves the sound.Andbecause of that, there's an immediate

45:24 market for whatever record you bringout, you know, whether you'rethe Beatles, the Stones, Status Quo orUB40. or UB40, you know, there'sthere are certain acts that have a soundthat's immediately recognizable andimmediately popular. Andwe were just lucky. It's It's not bydesign, you know, we didn't we didn'tthink, "Right, we're going to make asound that no one else has got." We werejust trying to make music we loved andthe way it came out, I was in a greatband, you know, that that made greatmusic and had its own immediatelyidentifiable sound. That longevity isbonded not only with people of my age,our age, who've grown up with your

46:07 music, but with younger people today aswell.Yeah, it's it's amazing we keep beingrediscovered. It's uh which iswonderful, you know. It's that's socialmedia. That's Spotify and iTunes and andall of that, you know, Apple Music, etc.Cuzit never ceases to amaze me how manykids there are in the audience, youknow. Obviously,there aresome generational things where, youknow, fans of our age have brought theirkids and their kids are now bringing intheir kids, you know.And that happens. [clears throat] We doget three generations of families atshows.But also,there are teenagers there whose parentsnever listened to us. They've just

46:50 discovered us on social media and fallenin love with the sound again, you know.And it's uhit's an incredibleuhincredibly lucky position to be in thatwe again we've got a sound that isimmediately recognizable, is unique, andis still turning people on. And althoughreggae boomed with many of us in thelate '60s, '70s, and into the '80s,you're really still flying the flag forreggae, aren't you?Yeah.Andand probably the most successful atdoing it other than Marley, obviously.UmMarley was the man who put reggae on themap. I mean, there's there's been all

47:33 sorts of artists that haveinternationalized reggae, you know,Jimmy Cliff was probably the first, youknow, andJohn Holt, Ken Boothe, Desmond Dekker,all sorts of other artists, but Marleytook it to a different level in the'70s.Uh and then of course, he diedand we kind of took over, really, asreggae ambassadors, you know. And umand when we recorded Labour of Love,the series of albumsuh four albums that have umthat are all recordings of the therecords that we grew up on, you know.That was the whole point of making thatalbum was touh

48:15 show people what turned us on to reggaein the first place, you know.Umbutyeah, that that kind of changed people'sattitudes to us.Not only did it give us more hitrecords, but it changed the way peoplelooked at us cuz they realized that wewerefans of the music, you know, and and hadbeen listening to it since itsinception, you know. And that's I thinkalso was massive for our popularity inthe Caribbean, certainly in Jamaica, youknow. If If you go anywhere in theCaribbean now, you will hear UB40records, even though the originals areJamaican artists' records, butbut our versions of them are now being

48:59 played, you know, all the time. I wasgoing to ask you that question. You're amixed-race band from Birmingham, whichreflects the city. Absolutely. How didit go down originally though in inJamaica in particular?II thinkit's always been completely accepted inJamaica. I think that people have justloved the fact that we were playingreggae, you know. They loved the factthat we've we were playing their music.We were promoting their music, you know.And that's how they look at it inJamaica. It's their music that we'replaying, you know. AndI mean, that's that's always been theattitude in the Caribbean to us.It's It's different in different places,you know. There are places where people

49:43 have You get all this, you know, uhyou've appropriated other people'smusic, you know, but that's what musicis. It's a It's an you know, it's anexchange of ideas and and cultures andetc. That's how music works. That'sThat's howsoul music isplayed all over Of course, it's Americanby origin, you know, and and evenAfrican by origin, but, you know, nowit's a world music as is reggae, youknow. And uhI mean, that's that's just the way itis, but it's There are some strangeattitudes to it, but on the wholewe're completely accepted globally.>> And how can probably kids from Bosworthbe accused of appropriating black music?

50:27 That's what we grew up with.>> Exactly.Uh yeah.I was there when it was invented, youknow, and and heard it fromwhen it changed from ska, slowed down,became rocksteady, bluebeat, you know,and before it became reggae.And um it was It was as much our musicas anybody else's as far as we wereconcerned. That was, you know, the musicwe werein love with. As time has gone on, wereyou able to meet some of the greatreggae stars like John Holt and>> Yeah. Jimmy Cliff? Come on, tell meabout this. Come on.>> [laughter]>> Well, just naturally because of thesuccessand and going to Jamaica and uhand playingbig shows, you know, because of our

51:09 success, we got to work withartists, you know,that would open for us. I mean, we hadToots and the Maytals opening for us inEurope. And for us, that was just, youknow,unbelievable cuz these were guys thatI'd adored since I was12, 13 years old. And there was Tootsplaying on stage, you know,for our audience.Andit doesn't get any better than that, youknow. I mean, we've we've played withall sorts from Ken Boothe to John Holtto Toots, uh Barry Hammond, you know,all all sorts of different artists haveplayed with us on stage.And uh

51:53 it just doesn't get any better thanthat, you know. We did an album calledThe Fathers of Reggae, UB40, you getused to The Fathers of Reggae.And it was kind of a reverse of theLabour of Love series where we went tothose artists, the original artists, andasked them if they'd record one of oursongs.>> Yeah.And they were queuing up. I mean,the artists that we didn't use wereringing us up and going, "Why aren't Ion your album?", you know.And I mean, it was it it You had to pickpick and choose who who you were goingto use, you know. It was reallydifficult.Butwe had all sortsfrom, you know, John Holt and KenBoothe, Toots, but we also had TheMighty Diamonds, you know.All sorts. It was just such a wonderful

52:38 period. Just get all those peoplesinging your songs, your lyrics, yourtunesand um on our backings, you know.And then to get get that stuff in thestudio and just play with it for months,you know, before we had to release it asan album was for me was just like themost fun. I bet it was.Just the best time of my life, really.Outside of touring, do you manage to getto Jamaica? Occasionally. Yeah. Yeah, Imean, someumI think Earl, Astro, Brian, Jimmy allbought houses in Jamaica at differenttimes in the in the '80s and and '90s.Uh I didn't. Uh I

53:22 but II spent a lot of time holidaying>> Yeah. in the Caribbean, not justJamaica, but around the Caribbeanjust cuz it's a wonderful place to go,you know. But I didn't I didn't buy ahouse there, but yeah, at least half theband bought houses in the Caribbean.Take me through the late '80s and the'90s if you would.Well, the late '80s were when when we umwe got a new manager,uh who wasuh Robert Palmer's manager,David Harper,whosaidumHe came on board and he he basicallysaid to us, you know, "You've got tostart touring seriously.You know, you you touring, but you're

54:05 not doing it properly. You've got to goon the road and, you know, tourheavily."And yeah, from from the late '80s to themid-'90s, we were basically on the road.We never came off. I mean, we've alwaysbeen a touring band. We've always touredevery time we've made a record, we'vetoured it.But uhwith Harper,it became heavy touring, you know, andwe were literally on the road forI think six out of eight years,you know,uhonly coming home for weeks at a time andthen back out again, you know. It was uhIt was heavy, but

54:48 it's uhit kind of solidifiedeverything that we were trying to do,you know, and and cemented our positionand our careers, really. And in manyrespects, coming back to that pointabout longevity earlier on, that couldhave been a pivotal period for you toestablish your longevity. Absolutely. Wehadwe had more hits and of course, wereleased umat the end of that period or towards theend of that period, we wereleased uh Promises and Lies,which had Can't Help Falling in Love onit, the cover of the Elvis Presley song.And that gave usour second number one in the States.And I think it was number one in 30

55:34 countries or something. It just wentabsolutely crazy. And the album Promisesand Lies, we toured thatglobally for several years. And didn'tcome out for several years.UmSo, yeah, that kind of put us on anotherlevel again, you know, because it was sosuccessful.Uh we also released the second Labour ofLove album in that period and had fourtop 10 records in America with thatalbum. So,you know, it just changed everything,really, that period.>> How difficult was it to break through inAmerica with reggae?UmWell, it was difficult. WeWe had

56:16 umwe had no record success, really. We hadlive success. We built a live following,especially on the college circuit.>> Yeah. We were doing really well with thethe college circuit. We were gettinggood shows. We were selling good shows.Uh I mean, thousands. We were playing tothousands without any record success atall, without any radio play, you know.We were we were building a livefollowing. So, we could go and tour theUS and diduhsuccessfully,butwe weren't getting uhyou know, any radio play. It justwasn't happening. ItBlack radio wasn't playing reggae and

57:00 and, you know,middle of the road America wasn'tplaying reggae at all, you know.So,it just wasn't happening for us umcommercially.But as I say, we had a a good livefollowing and I think when we had ourfirst successcommercial success,which wasn't until'88, I think, our very first hit recordin Americawas Red Red Wine, which was released 5years earlier and nothingI think it just made the top 40 5 yearsearlier and it was number one everywhereelse, you know, and we thought, "This isfinally going to happen for us in the

57:42 States." and it didn't.But then 5 years later, it gotre-released.Uh it was a weird set of events where aDJ plucked it out andplayed it as ayou know,a golden oldie.And uh he got an mad reaction. "What'sthat record? What's that record?", youknow, "Where can I get it from?" So, itbecame his record of the month. And thenthe next radio station picked up on itin Phoenix, Arizona, I think. And itjust kind of snowballed. And then therecord company got in touch with us andsaid, "Can we re-release Red Red Wine?It's It's kind of gone viral." beforethe days of viral. So, yeah, were-released it. Went number one.

58:27 Crazy. 5 years later.And it was it was number one in America.And that changed everything because wealready had the live following. We werealready doing really well.And then we went and played MadisonSquare Garden. Oh, what a thrill.>> With a number one record.But we'd alreadywere playing, you know, venues likethat. We were already doing that well.But then we had the commercial success.And all of a sudden, everybody knew we'dbecome a household name because we had anumber one record. And that changedeverything. So, the mid-'90s, you'veyou've had this long run of very verylong tours. Is that beginning to to tellon you all now?

59:10 >> Absolutely. We got to the end of thatuh Promises and Lies tourwith our second number one in America,uh probably oursixth, seventh top 10 hit.Um and we'd toured the world constantly.As I say, six six out of eight years wewere on the road for.And um yeah, I was exhausted.And youIuh I just went and hid for about a year.I bought a house out in the country andspent a yearrebuilding it, re- refurbishing it, youknow. Andfunnily enough, I bought Jeff Lynne'shouse.You did, sir.

59:52 His house out in Meriden.I bought it off himcuz he was now living in Los Angeles.Another Bobby kid?>> Yeah. Um and he had abeautiful house in in Meriden. I boughtthat off him and I spent a yearrebuilding it, basically.Umand thenit took a while because I think everyonewas tired, but then, you know, everybodystartedworking and doing stuff. I didn't, to behonest. I was just I'd had enough. I wassoexhausted at the time.>> [clears throat]>> And I'd hadumI was having problems with variousmembers of the band's lifestyles and

1:00:37 choices, you know. And I just thought,"Do I really want to do this anymore?"you know.And that was how I felt in '95, '96, youknow. IreallyI thought I probably wouldn't go on theroad again.And then, of course,umthe guys out the band came back andsaid, "Come on, let's let's do it. Let'sdo it. Let's go, you know."And they played me the music they wereworking on.And of course, that excited me again.And I I just went, "Oh, right. I'm I'mback in."Andyeah, we started again.So, carry on the story from the late'90s into the 21st century.

1:01:21 Well, it was justmore of the same, really. We justumI don't know that we ever got back tothat level of uhof success that we had in the in themid-'90s.Umbut we were still doing sellout toursand still having a great time, you know.We're still touring heavily andrecording. And we just we just we'vealways done that cycle of recording analbum in our own studio and taking itout on the road, going out on the roadfor anything from 6 months to 12 monthsto several years.Uh depending on how successful the albumis, you know, but

1:02:04 that's the cycle. As soon as you finishtouring that album,you're working on new material. You'vegot new ideas. You you know, you want toget back in the studio. And when you'vegot your own studio as well, it's easy.So, you get home and then just fly intothe studio again and start working onnew stuff. And then as soon as you'vegot another album, you want to go backout on the road again. And that'sliterallywhat you've been doing what we've beendoing ever since.How important is it for youto maintain your commitment toBirmingham and to the West Midlands?It's always been important. We've alwaysseen ourselves as not just ambassadorsfor reggae, but ambassadors forBirmingham, you know. And uh

1:02:47 umBrian, our sax player has passed awaynow, was always very uhinstrumental in in pushing the wholeidea of Birmingham as a center ofculture, you know. And and the bid forthe city of culture,uh Brian was very involved in varioustimes.Uhwe've always said that Birmingham is sounder-recognized and doesn't blow itsown trumpet, and you know, never hasdone. Andconsidering what a cultural melting potit is,you know, and and how much successfulmusic has come out of Birmingham, it'sincredible that it's not recognized. Youget all this talk of Manchester or

1:03:31 Liverpool or London, obviously,umuh as being, you know, musical cities,you know. Butthey all pale compared to whatBirmingham's done since the '60s.You know, the number of bands that havecome out of Birmingham of all differenttypes of music, not one sound, not onetype of music, not the Merseybeat or,you know, or the Manchester sound, orexactly.Um you know,Coventry's known for two-tone, you know,but Birmingham is known for everything,every different type of music from heavymetal to reggae to rock to bhangrato soul music, you know, there's every

1:04:14 kind of music that's come out ofBirmingham and so many successful groupsthataren't recognized.And it should be, you know. We should beshouting about it. AndI mean, we've been saying this for along time and involved indiscussions about how to promoteBirmingham and, you know, and it neverquite comes to fruition. You get a lotof talk, butcouncils change,MPs change, mayors change, you know,people who are involved and vocal.And itjust never quite happened.I feel like it's going to because thereare more people getting involved. Thereare more people People likeSteven Knight,

1:04:56 who are very vocal about supportingBirmingham and promoting Birmingham, youknow.What's happening at Birmingham CityFootball Ground, you know, footballclub.Uh all of thatmakes me hopeful, you know, for thefuture of Birmingham and its itsreputation as a city ofmusic and culture. I think there's acouple of points, so one of the reasonswhy people don't think of Birmingham asthis great musical city is what you'vetouched on, the eclecticism.>> Cuz it's so mixed. Yeah. And the otherthing is, unfortunately, and I I have tosay this, our leadership over many, manyyears, and I'm going to say this now,has utterly failed to promote Birminghamas a city of music.>> Absolutely. Yeah. I want to pick up aswell, if I may, Robin, on

1:05:41 Brian,the late Brian Travers, who I know was afantastic friend to you. I classed himas a pal. He was a pal to everybody.>> He was, wasn't he? Everybody knew himand he knew everybody. He was uhhe wasvery skilled at communicating and makingfriends. He wasHe was an amazing guy. And you weresaying about his memory.Oh, ridiculous.He If yousaw someone you knew you knew, but youdidn't know where from, he would justlean over and whisper into your ear whothat person was, who their wife was, andwho their children were, and who theyworked for, or what company they ran. Hewas just incredible.And he taught himself this trick. He

1:06:24 read a book once as a ladaboutmemorizing names. And he taught himselfand he tried to explain it to me.>> [laughter]>> And it just didn't make any sense. And Iwas going,"How How do you remember the story orthe rhyme or whatever it was that hecreated?"And he was like, "Well, that's how youremember everything."Didn't make any sense to me at all, buthe was absolutely brilliant at it. Heremembered everybody's names. And thatmadeeverybody he remembered feel specialbecause they thought, "How does heremember?" Yeah, I hadn't seen him for20 years. How does he remember me? Andthat was hisbrilliant social skill. He was He wasjust remarkable how he did it. And that

1:07:07 gives me an opportunity to not only paytribute to Brian, but to you and therest of the band because back when wewere fighting to save Longbridge at theturn of the century, I approached anumber of bands to come and support usat the end of the big march of 100,000people when we had a big event in CannonHill Park, and you you be 40 said, "Yes,we'll be there. No buts, no ifs. We'llbe there." And you were there, and thankyou.Pleasure. Yeah, I mean, you know, we'vealways tried to lend our voice to anykind of a movement. And, you know, as Isay, well, as you've already said,the leadership of Birmingham over theyears has haslet us down, you know. I've had allsorts of promises made. I've heard all

1:07:50 sorts of talk, you know.But it never quite because it changes,because councils change, becauseleaderships change, etc.Uh you know,it's just never quite come to fruition.And there's been so much promise and somany other abilities, you know. And it'sbeen exciting over the years. We've beeninvolved in initiatives and talks, andbut it just never quite comes off. Howmuch hasthe loss of Brian been a blow to theband? Oh,itIt was massive. I think I think umI I wrote at the time thatthere was a giant Brian-shaped hole in

1:08:33 the band that would never be filled, youknow, could never be filled by somebodyelse. Even though, obviously,musically, we havea replacement, you know.We've got a horn section still that hethat he put together.Umbut he was our most prolific lyricist.Umhe washe was a one-off, you know. Hisenthusiasm and his drivewasis irreplaceable, you know.He was also difficult to live with inmany ways,but he was an amazing guy. He was anamazing friend. Andthe band will always miss him, you know.

1:09:17 Umliterallyirreplaceable.Four of the founder members are stillthere.UmJimmy and Earl, the original bass anddrums, Norman, our percussionist andvocalist,and me.Uh that's four of the original six guysthat started together, then it becameeight.Uhbut yeah, four of the original halfdozen are still there.Uhthe horn section, the two of the hornplayers we've got with us,uhMartin and Laurence have both been withus for 30 years.So, you know,they're almost like founding members.Um Ian, the guy who

1:10:01 stood in stepped in for Brian when hebecame ill, has now been with us for 6years, something like that.UmWe haveuh a keyboard playerwho'sfairly new, been with usuha couple of years now. He's a Jamaicankeyboard player,Jared Gordon.Uh extremely talented young man. Buthe's a multi-instrumentalist, but heplays keyboards for us.Uhhe's full of ideas. He's already broughtme a song,um which will possibly be on the nextalbum, in fact almost certainly be onthe next album.

1:10:44 Uh so, he's super talented.UmAnd my son, Matt Campbell,he's also now in the band. He's beenmanagement now for the last 5 years.Uh he's he's been involved in managementfor longer than that. He was he ran oursocial media for a few years before hegot involved as manager. But he and hisbusiness partner are now our managers.But also, I've managed to drag himkicking and screaming into the band.And he's onuh the last album and and this new albumdoing vocals. And he's also now on stage

1:11:27 with us. So, not only does he work histail off as manager for the band, he'salso a performing artist on stage.So,the band is ever-changing, you know?UhButwe have a new lead vocalist, Matt Doyle,who'sbeen with us, I think, 5 years now.UhAnd he, you know, hedoesn't sound like anybody else, buthe's very similar to a young Ali.He grew up on UB40. He's been singingit as he describes it, he used to sit inthe back seat of his dad's car and singalong to his dad's tapes, his UB40

1:12:12 tapes. So, he knows all the songs fromwhen he was 3 years old, you know.Uh he's now singing songs that wererecorded before he was born.UmBut he absolutely fits into the band. Hefits into the sound, the ethos, youknow, the wholething about the band, he he just fittedin like that. I mean, he was lead singerof a band called Kioko before us. Andthey supported us on probably 40 datesthat ran the UK and Europe. And uhI worked with him in the studio and Ijust thought,"This kid's really good."And Duncan was our lead singer at thetime, uh my other younger brother. Anduh

1:12:54 I was remember thinking to myself then,you know, if Duncan ever decided hedidn't want to do this anymore,umI'd go for this one, cuz this kid'sgood, you know, and he sounds perfectwith the band.And uhhere he is. He's now ever since Duncanretired, we've had Matt, and he justfits in so perfectly.And uh yeah, we we still sound likeUB40. We still have the core of the UB40sound,uh apart from our original vocalist,obviously.But yeah, the the music creators, thelyricists, etc., are all still there, uhapart from Brian.UmAnd yeah, we still havethe sound of UB40, the mentality of

1:13:38 UB40, and uh and the ethos, you know,it's uhI'm probably enjoying being in the bandmore now than I have done for a longtime.Because everything's working. Not onlyuh is my son and his business partnerrunning the band beautifully, you know,and that makes me happy that they'redoing what I've been screaming for forthe last few years.They're doing it properly, you know.UmBut also, musically, we're enjoyingourselves again. We're liking what we'redoing and and enjoying ourselves. Andthat cycle of album, tour and he's goingto continue next year? Absolutely. Tellus about it. We're in the studio now.

1:14:21 We're working on the next album. Uhthe last one we released2 years ago now, I think, uh was calledUB45, which was a celebration of 45years of being UB40.UmWhich was, I think, released in '23,because we formed in '78, so that was 45years.Um so, yeah, we've we just spent acouple of years touring that album, uhas usual. And we're now back in thestudio working on another album, thenext album. And uh we already havedates. We've got European tour in March.Uh we've got British uh arena tour inJune.And then we've got Australia, New

1:15:03 Zealand, America, South America,and other stuff being talked about. Andof course, I'm going to be coming to seeyou at Birmingham. At the NEC, which isnow called the BP Pulse Arena. We'll bethere in June.Before we finish, I would just want tocome back to your mom and dad.Did your mom and dad are they still withus? No. Were they able to see yoursuccess and enjoy your success? Oh,yeah.Yeah, massively. UmYeah, we only lost themboth a few years back. But uh yeah,they've they've seen all the successwe've had andwallowed in it, you know.Both very proud of our success, for

1:15:45 sure.And what would your message be toup-and-coming young musicians and bandsin and around Well, anywhere, really,Robin? I find it impossible to come upwithuhadvice.I mean,my only one thing that I would alwayssayis do what we did and share everythingequally.Because if you don't, you will alwayshave musical differences, and you'llalways have people falling out becausethey're not earning the same as you are,or you're not earning the same as theyare, you know, it's that's what causesfriction within a band is if you're if

1:16:29 there's one songwriter and he's earningall the money, or there's twosongwriters, whatever, you know.If uhif you're in a band,thenremember you're in a band, and rememberthat that's what makes a band is thefact that you're all contributing to theend result. It doesn't matter that oneof you isworking harder than somebody else, orwriting more lyrics, or whatever.It's the end result that counts, and youdon't get that end result as a soloartist. You get that end result byworking in collaboration with anothergroup of people, you know. And to me,that's the magic and the joy of being ina band.

1:17:11 I write a song and I'll demo it, andI'll bring it to the band.And by the time it's finished, itdoesn't sound like the demo I startedwith, because it's got the input of thedrummer and the bass player and thehorns and the, you know,and all of that might be different towhat I would have come up with.But what you have to do within a band islearn to live with it, you know, andtrust in the other members of the bandto do their part, to play their partin making the sound that's becomesuccessful.And for me, that's that's the uhthe secret to being in a a good band issharing everything. And that's

1:17:55 fascinating to me, because I can hear inwhat you're saying there, the influenceof your mom and dad, the importance ofcollectivism. Absolutely. Yeah.All right, yeah, it's it's basically aa socialist principle, you know? And ummy parents definitely instilled that inme.And that was something that I was veryuhinsistent onwithin the band was that, you know,we shared everything equally. That whenwe wrote it when wepublished a song, it had all eightmembers' names on it as the composers.Even though it might only be one, two,or three people

1:18:39 out of that eight that actually composedthat song.You know,umwhat it meant was that every member ofthe band earned equally out of whateverthat song earned. Whatever thatgenerated, you know,it was shared equally amongst all themembers. You've said what next for UB40.You're carrying on the cycle of album,tours. Yeah. How can we find out moreabout UB40?Well, I guess social media is is the theway nowadays. If you put in UB40Official, you'll find us. Robin, it'sbeen a real pleasure. I'm saying that asone Brummie to another, as one reggaefan to another, somebody with no musicalability. And I've got to say this now as

1:19:23 a Villa fan who is a Blues fan, it'sbeen bad gone. I won't hold it against>> [laughter]>> Here's coming.>> Thanks, mate.