Christina Longden

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0:00 Everybody kept saying, you know, this isa story, this is amazing, this is afilm. And I kept thinking, come onStephen, write the book. Turn around tome and he went, you're the writer, youwrite. I was utterly homesick, verydifferent to where I was from. So, thatwas a real shock to me. My dad took onelook at it, was really astonished. Theyear was 1908. He rang my brother up andsaid, you need to sit down. I've gotsomething to tell you. Your great greatgreat granddad. And then he disappearedfrom the family.Welcome to our lives, our stories. Andtoday, I'm going to be delving into thelife and story and those of herancestorsof a woman called Christina Longden.She's involved in lots of good causes,the Lorna Young Foundation. And she's

0:44 now working on acommunity investment company becoming acharity called Past Trousers.She was one of my very first students atthe University of Birmingham back in theearly 1990s. I can't tell you how proudI am of her achievements. Now, her nameis Christina. I knew her at universityas Tina. She's normally called Chris.So, if I switch between Chris and Tina,it's the same person.Tina, welcome. Thank you. I'm reallypleased to have you. You've come all theway down from West Yorkshire. You're aLancashire lass. I am. Living in thewhite rose county. Yeah. Let's go backto the beginning. Talk to me and there'sso much I want to talk with you about,

1:26 particularly about class prejudice,accent prejudice. But, let's go back tothe beginning.Tell me about your family, yourupbringing.Oh, well, from a little town calledDukinfield. She's an outgrowth ofStalybridge, which you knew that allabout when I met you at university,which is like, wow, somebody knows whatStalybridge umwhich is a really traditional northernworking class mill town. Very famousback in the day, which is what I've beenwriting about. Um mom and her dad and abig brotheruh lived on a street which was very muchthe accommodation street, type terraces,red bricks, um,and just a very normal, ordinary, happychildhood. Never had any bigexpectations in life, you know, maybegrow up, get married, and never thought

2:09 I'd go to university.>> [laughter]>> We'll come back to that in a moment, buttell me about your mom and dad. What didthey do? Well, their backgrounds.>> dad, uh, my dad was an HGV mechanic, alorry mechanic. He originally worked onthe buses as a bus mechanic inStalybridge. My mom worked in one of thecotton mills in Staly- in Stalybridge.Uh, she worked in the personnel officedoing the typing.Uh, and they met in the canteen at themill. Oh, romance in the canteen.>> Did they encourage you and your brotherto get an education? I think my dad leftschool at 14 or 15, I might might bewrong. My mom, um, she went to thesecondary modern. That's another storyas well. She She told me at the timethat she didn't go to grammar school,

2:51 she failed the 11-plus on purpose cuzshe knew her parents couldn't afford theuniform.So, she never she she just told us thatas an offhand comment and both mybrother and I go,"Wow, you know." She She's not negativeabout it. She said, "I was a head girlat the secondary modern, it was fine."But, yeah, she was she was serious abouteducation for both of us, probably moreso for me because I wasn't interested infootball which my brother was obsessedwith.What did you know of your family'sbackground? Your mom's side, your dad'sside. I think what what I knew aboutthem were they were from different whatyou would call the strata of the workingclass. So, I would say my dad's familywould consider themselves to be moreupper working class. Um, my mom'sfamily, I don't know what they would

3:33 have considered themselves, but theylived in the poorer parts of town. Yeah.This is something we discussed when youwere a a student, particularly with a awonderful book that people might want toread calledThe Classic Slum by a man called RobertRoberts that deeply influenced me aboutthe strata within the working class,about Salford. Yeah. What were yourhopes and ambitions Did you have hopesand ambitions growing up? I lovedwriting. I absolutely loved writing.It's as soon as I discovered I couldwrite, it's all I ever wanted to do, butI knew it wouldn't ever be a job, andyou know, I couldn't do that because wedidn't know any writers, you know, andyou don't write books cuz it's a bit ofitself. It's a bit self-indulgent. Whodo you think you are? Get a proper job.Think about the pension.Uh and you're never going to make any

4:14 money from writing. Well, there's a lotto be said for that. That's true. But itwas a part of me that I could andexercise a little bit at universitywithin the academic constraints.But yeah, that's what I wanted to do. Ifyou'd asked me growing up, what wouldyou like to be? Apart from being aHollywood actress, which, you know,clearly that has happened. But yeah, itwas writing. It was the love of ofwriting. Were there any teachers thatencouraged you? Yeah, I was so so lucky.Looking back now, it was quite anexperimental school in Dukinfield um inin the '70s and early '80s.Um and I would say it was kind of run byex-hippies. And it was I didn't realizeit was seen to be a really disadvantagedarea until I was in my '20s. I just

4:57 thought everybody lived in these areas.Um but we had really fantastic teachers.Uh very old-fashioned Victorian way ofof teaching you in some regards. But Iwas really lucky. I could I could listso many teachers that I had,particularly English teachers, who justnoticed that I liked writing andencouraged it. And And other subjects,you know, I I loved learning. And I wasnever one of these kids that hatedschool. I I didn't like the didn't likethe social aspect of school as much asyou get older into your teen years. Uhbut I I definitely was so fortunate tohave so many teachers who would say theright thing at the right time. So wheredid the going to university come from?That was at sixth form. So I went to

5:39 Hyde, Hyde sixth form.And a couple couple of teachers said tomy momuh parents' evening, is she going toapply for university? Now, my brotherhad gone before me and there'd neverbeen any expectation that he'd beinterested in and all of a sudden hereally turned himself around at schooland did really well in his all levelsand he went to to Leeds University. So,me and my brother were the first in ourfamily to go to university. But again,it I hadn't thought I would. Obviously,I was impressed that my brother hadgone. Yeah. But again, I had no ideawhich university to go to and andwonderfulteacher Justin Hydecker who she kind ofsaid, "Well, these are the gooduniversities." And Birmingham was rightup at the top, which is how I ended upmeeting you in the end. Do you think,before we look at your university time,

6:23 do you think the fact that you were a aworking-class girlso affected expectationsrather than a working-class lad likeyour brother? Possibly. UmI think my mom and dad I think becauseit was such an unknown to both of them,there wasn't so much a your boys go andyour girls go.Umand again, inthe the school that I went to, it wasn'tagain, it wasn't certainly a given thatthat being female that you'd go. I thinkit changed a little bitas I was getting older. Uh and certainlywe, you know, we knew more boys thatwere going to university. But butabsolutely, if you think if you think

7:06 about my grandparents, there was noexpectation that I'd go. My granny,bless her, what you know, I could havebeen I could have been a bank robber andshe would have been proud of me.>> Yeah. She was like [laughter]I Christie, they call you. Yeah. I wasTina. I Tina. That's why I called youTina, wasn't it? It was, yeah. Yeah.Very few people call me that.>> [laughter]>> Just you. I'm privileged. I'mprivileged, aren't I? Did you know muchabout your your grandparents' lives? Iknew Yeah, I knew what jobs they'd doneand I knew in particular on my dad'sside, my great gran my great granddad,Grampy Stanley, we called him. I knewhe'd been a mayor of Stalybridge. Andthat side of the family were quite aconservative side. side of the family.The other side, my mum's side, were moresocialist.

7:47 >> Yes. I remember, cuz I think he diedwhen I was four, I can remember him. Andhe was So, he was a Victorian. He was aVictorian, and I remember sitting at hisfeet and and chattering away and talkingto him, and he had the whole, you know,the waistcoat, the waistcoat as me mumsays, and and the little pocket watchand the the the entire I remember that'sa very, vivid memory of him, of how hetalked and how he sounded. I'm veryproud that he'd been a mayor.>> Yeah.>> [laughter]>> Yeah. And he owned his own business aswell, so, you know, Yeah.>> very well-to-do.And that's where we had so much incommon, because I remember my grandadvery well, born in 1892, a Victorian. Hewore a waistcoat, a fob watch, just likeyour grandad. And it's hard, you know,to say that to my children, and I my Ithink they think I'm lying, but no, you

8:31 just look at your timeline. This isoverlap. Before we go on to theuniversity, cuz there's a lot there thatI want to talk about. Later in life, youdiscovered a really interesting, great,great, great grandfather, didn't you?>> That was his grandad. Right, so this wasyour grandad's grandad.>> My grandad's grandad, and he waspractically raised by him. There's a lotof grandfather raising in our family,for one reason or another, yeah.>> So, who was this great, great, greatgrandfather? This is the other strangething. He was also one of a mayor ofStalybridge, one of the very first oneswhen when it became a corporation, thetown of Stalybridge. So, all the familyare from Stalybridge, and he became oneof the first mayors of Stalybridge. Andmy dad, when he got made redundant,he said, "I'm going to do something with

9:13 my time. I'm going to do my familyhistory. I've been wanting to do it for,you know, obviously, you know, he'sworkingvery, very hard atis doing the mechanic job that he did,you know, and never ever got seemed tohave any time off, but now he had thetime. And he thought, well, I'm going togo for the obvious one, so I know hisgrandad. I know he was a mayor, so Iknow all about him, cuz he basicallyraised me. And I'm going to find outabout his grandad, who was also a mayor,cuz we've got nothing on him. So, that'show we came to unearth this incrediblediscovery about the life that he'd ledthat the family had basically covered upfor 100 years. What was his name? Whydid they cover it up? Robert Stanley.Andwe found this out through a cousin whoheard that my dad was doing the

9:56 research, and the cousin said, "I've gota little newspaper magazine about him,and I don't really get what it's onabout, Brian." That's my dad. "Can youhave a look at it?" So, my dad took onelook at it,was really astonished. And it The yearwas 1908, and the newspaper was calledThe Crescent.It's about this big. My dad's still gotit. And on the front page, I think itwas, maybe the second page, there was aphotograph of him. The only otherphotograph that we had of him, we hadthe mayoral picture.>> Yes. You know? So, we knew what helooked like, and it was a photograph andit is the spitting image of my dad. So,you can see the family genes. And in it,it describes him as Brother RashidStanley, and he's wearing a fez. Whichis the Turkish hat, the the the the redone that's on the top there with a

10:39 little tassel.>> Yes. I'm not to me, I think Tommy Cooperwhen I see a fez. That generation. I'm abit ignorant about that. Yes. Thefascinating thing wasanother cousin then got in touch andsaid,"Well, this is all making sense becausesomebody gave me this fez, and I've hadit in my loft all this time." Ah. So,you know, most people throw things out.He just He had no idea why this fez hadcome down from one of the granddads. So,we've got the actual fez. But the mostastonishing thing is then my dad And mydad's not interested in religion. He'snot a religious person, but he rang mybrother up and said, "You need to sitdown. I've got something to tell you.Your great-great-great-granddadconverted to Islam. It's the entirestory of it in this little newspaper,

11:21 which was a Muslim newspaper called TheCrescent." But my brother's a Muslim, asyou know, Carl. He converted back in1991.So, he knew nothing about this. Hethought he was the first working-classlad in Manchester to think, "Do you knowwhat? I've got more in common with thisreligion that that that really matchesthe way that I think about the world."But his own ancestor had done it beforehim. He was beaten to it.>> yes. He stole his win 100 years beforehim. Now, thatreally engrossed you this story, didn'tit? So, you ended up doing a adeep research.>> Yeah. Cuz my I always thought that mybrother would do it. Um and we had thisdiscussion. Umand and I said, know, everybody ourfriends and family, you know, my

12:05 brother's family are Muslim. You know,we've got a very mixed group ofdifferent religions in in the family andin the friendship circles. And everybodykept saying, you need This is a story.This is amazing. This is a film. Thiscould be and I kept thinking, "Come on,Stephen, write the book." And he turnedaround to me and he went, "Well, youYou're the writer. You write." And andalso, why is it more my story thanyours? And and I think I've just beenthinking because it's a personal faiththing. I mean, it's nice. Everybody'sstory. This doesn't matter. It doesn'tmatter who However somebody lives theirlife, it's still your family history.So,explain how you went about expandingthe life of this man, or uncovering hislife.>> It was my dad. My dad did an awful lotof the original birth, marriages,

12:48 deaths, putting all the facts together,you know, so he was fantastic. Now, myAuntie Gay, um she's calledum Gay G. Oliver, and she's really goodon family history in the greaterManchester area. So, between them, theywere on a bit of a chase. Um so, my dadput together a pamphlet which went tothe local library and they wereastonished cuz they thought, "Wow, thisis an amazing story. This isincredible." Not only was he the mayor,but the family had covered it up. Andbut then people kept asking, "But whatdid his wife think? But what did hisdaughters think? But what But what ButAnd I knew that there was there was morethere to fill. So, I thought, "Well, I'mgoing to do the the that I've alwayswanted to do." So, I I really threwmyself into the archives at this pointbecause with those newspapers in that

13:32 particular part of Manchester hadn'tbeen digitized, still not digitized. So,I went back to my dissertation years onthe microfiche. So, I had to go throughhundreds and thousands of pages justscanning for his name. Couldn't type inRobert Smalley. It was literally ruiningyour eyesight.>> I only ask because people that havenever done that, especially youngsters,you havewhat what would you call it? A littleMike what you would Microfiche it's areader, isn't it? It's a reader machine,yeah.>> And you've got hundreds of pages ofnewspapers on like a On the oldcassettes on the old cassette of filmsand you put it in the side and you whirlit round like this. You can do it on thethe the electronic one, but even thatlooks like prehistoric compared to whatpeople do.>> I I understand how long it took youbecause it was the same for my thesis.And there's it's today there's so many

14:15 newspapers that are digitized you couldput a search in.But then you couldn't. You had to gothrough thousands of pages.>> I mean in a way I would love to havejust been able to type in his name andthen all the relevant pages come up. Butthen I'd missthe the the the context.>> Yes.>> So, as you know when you're reading oldnewspapers you go, "Oh, well somebody'sgot drunk. Oh, somebody's beenmurdered." And I just got so stuck inthis world of the 1870s in Manchesterand the radical times and and the thechanges to, you know, civic duties andwhat the ordinary people were goingthrough and how we only ever heard aboutordinary women if they were drunk inpublic or they'd been a bad mother.Yeah.>> Or they'd been killed. Yeah.>> That's all you ever heard about them.Yeah, and it was it was that was

14:57 fascinating because that was quiteupsetting at times, some of the stories.You know this you get into the crime andthe punishment andreally hard on the women. What did youfind out about him and then we'll askyou about what you found out about hiswife and his daughters. What did I findout? I found out that hewas born in Wales. The family fell onhard times in the 1820s, so he wasactually a Cardiff boy born in Wales.They sent him back at the age of nine tostay the bridge because Uncle John hadbecome a rich industrialist. So eventhough they were working class family,he had become basically a millionaireand he was in iron. So this is at thepoint of the Industrial Revolution whenthe workers aren't going to be handlingweavers anymore. We've got factories

15:40 full of these machineries, the powerlooms. So that's how Uncle John made hismoney um 1812 onwards. So he was theuncle to your great great greatgrandfather who was born in Cardifffrom another branch of the family butobviously a close branch and then thefamily thought well we'll send him up toWell this is what they did. So his olderbrother had been sent back before him.Right. He became a shop apprentice andthe really strange spin in all of thisis Uncle John was the second in commandof the Christian Israelites who were areally unusual millennial Christiansect. Goodness.>> Who were take took over JoannaSouthcott's movement. She believed thatthat Jesus was coming, didn't she?[clears throat]>> Christ was going to come again. JohnWroe who was called Prophet Wroe who wasa man from Bradford basically wrestled

16:23 with all the other church leaders totake it over when Joanna died.And so he said that Christ was going tobe born in Ashton, Ashton-under-Lyne. Hedeclared it was the new Jerusalem and hegot his congregation. John Stanleybankrolled this. This is why we know wewere we were poor because John Stanleyspent all our money on this hugeChristian Israelite sanctuary building abig sanctuary in the So there's noinheritance? No. It's all gone to theChristian Israelites. What else did youfind about your ancestors' upbringingJohn Stanley, Uncle John? Well this isthe bit that fascinated me. So my dadfound out that Robert at the age of 19had been married in the sanctuary.Which you know, if you've if you're fromthat area and you're into history youmight have heard of them. And theyfollowed the Abrahamic faith. So they

17:07 they basically lived like Jewish peoplewould. They the guys were allcircumcised. Everybody ate kosher. Thewomen dressed in a certain way.Absolutely down to the letter. Everybodylearnedbut Christ was going to come again. Andwhen Christ did come, and they'repreparing for that, then they would livein a Christian life. So, he was marriedin that sanctuary. So, that told me alot about the decisions that he madelater on in life. When he left Ashton,literally about 10-minute walk over theborder to Stalybridge, he became agrocer, started going to the Anglicanchurch. And the Anglican church at thattimethe turmoil that was going on because ofcertain person who you'll rememberWilliam Murphy was causing antagonism,terrible sectarian antagonism.

17:48 >> a Catholic Irishman who became aProtestant, but then a rabid, virulentanti-Catholic.>> Nasty piece of>> Yeah. And he used to go around thecountry setting up a so-calledtabernacle and saying filthy, horriblethings about the Pope and all this>> Birmingham, did it all over, and he didit in Stalybridge. And it had a riot.And it that was again, growing up, I wasaware that there were a lot of Catholicsin one part of town, and the Protestantswere in another part of town. Nobodyever explained it to me. And they all,oh, this all makes sense now. They walkon a different day for with Friday. Andbut that's I think what he realized waspeople weren't behaving like Christians.So, he, you know, it was the age of 69he found out about probably Britain'smost famous convert of all, who was got

18:32 also called William and became AbdullahQuilliam. And he set up the first mosquein the country, which is in Liverpool.Still there. You can visit it. So,that's how he started thinking aboutstuff. He was he realized that theconduct of the Christians, these peoplethat call themselves Christians, werenot behaving like Christians. He starteddiscovering for himself, and bear inmind he had no formal education.Basically taught himself cuz there wasthe there wasn't the education act. Hehe grew up 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. He gotinterested in international politicsbecause he obviously read the newspapernonstop. And people were really, reallyengaged in international issues. So, Ialways say, you know, there was noNetflix then, but everybody gottogether. They were in the middle of theAmerican Civil War, and he started

19:14 thinking and he started writing, and hewas chairing debates of hundreds of menin the town, and it was men, wanting todiscuss these issues. And he wasconsidered, I think, for obviously ahumble grocer to be really well read,which is why they encouraged him tobecome a counselor. And that is, Ithink, the the tipping point for him washe became a counselor after theLancashire cotton famine, which wasjust, you know, Which was caused by theAmerican Civil War.>> Yeah. Because there wasn't any cottoncoming from the Southern states.>> Yeah, and and of course, you know, thepeople the the factory workers were allout of work. There was starvation. Therewas terrible unemployment. The poorrelief, you know, they couldn't get themoney to the people that needed it. Uhthat at that point, people I thinknoticed cuz they had a huge bread riot

19:57 in in town, and his shop was looted likeeverybody else's was.And the well-heeled men of the townsaid, "This this Robert guy seems toknow his onions. Um let's get himinvolved on the council. He'sconservative tradition, you know, he'snot going to cause any big revolutionhere."And I think they kind of got more thanthey bargained for because he reallyknew what was going on internationally.And then we had the Bulgarianatrocities. It's when the Turks wentThey they were running Bulgaria at thetime, and the massacre of theChristians.>> And Gladstone really played on this.Gladstone absolutely used this as an asas basically as a as a calling cardagainst the Ottoman Empire cuz, as youknow, Carl, the Ottoman Empire was kindof getting towards the end of its So, it

20:40 was used and it was used as an excuse.Every Every mayor had to stand up andcondemn what had happened, and Robertdidn't. Right.>> He didn't, and he said, "Look, I I'mabsolutely assured that the the caliph,um the head of the Ottoman Empire, hassaid this is never going to happenagain. He's put measures in place. It'sa disgrace. By forcing people to standup and call this out, you're doingsomething else here." He was verysuspicious of Russia as well. He thoughtthe very Russiangetting, you know, in on the scene. Andthen a lot of the other mayors aroundthe country, the mayor of Wolverhamptonsaid, "No, we're with you. This There'sother stuff going on here. You'remanipulating us all." At that point, hestepped back from politics and decidedto go and be a pub landlord.

21:23 So, he's a Muslim pub landlord.>> a Muslim yet. This is initially. What doyou thinkcuz he becomes a Muslim late in life,doesn't he?>> Yeah, 69. What do you think themotivation was, the catalyst was? Ithink it was the betrayalof those people that he hadthought were his friends. He said thisin in Going back to that article in thequestion, he said,"These people who I thought were myfriends turned against me because Idared." And my reading of this is, "Youworking-class person, we've raised youup. Who do you think you are? Who areyou to tell us, you know, we own thistown. We own the money in this town."And you're saying, "No, I'm not doingthat cuz you're wrong." And then I'm allright. Then you do actually.

22:05 And I think it was at that point hethought, "Well, well, I thought thesewere my people. Who are my people?" forthisthat the only description my granny hadof him was he was a rich bite, which issomebody who practices temperance. Now,I don't know whether that's a spin on hebecame a Muslim so he gave up alcohol.But he was a pub landlord of 18 years,first in the New Inn, which is stillthere. Fantastic pub.And I think he would have seen someawful stuff going on in the pub in termsof alcohol.As you know, because he was a mayor, hewas also a magistrate. And I looked upall the records of every single casethat was ever brought to him. And thereoccurring theme was how people's liveswere blighted by alcohol. And he had a

22:50 lot of mercy and a lot of compassion.And he was very different to the othermagistrates who wereall the aristocrats. What did you findout then about his wife and hisdaughters?>> Nothing. Nothing? Absolutely nothing. Itried so hard. The The only I was socurious about his wife.>> Yeah. So, if you bear in mind thathe would have when he became a Muslim,he became a Muslim in Liverpool. He saidShahada in Liverpool at the mosque.>> What's Shahada?>> It's when you you you say the statementthat there is no God and and Muhammad isis So, that's we've got a written recordof when that happened. And he would havebeen on that train line from StalybridgeManchester Liverpool to worship. There'sno mosque in Manchester. But they gaveup running and moved to Manchester with

23:32 his wife and his two adult daughters.Now, Emma, his wife, had 11 children.In a tiny little terrace house, youknow, but you This is This isn'tunusual, really, but they moved toManchester, which is If you're fromStalybridge, it's it's 20 minutes on theIt's not even that.>> It's a different world in many respects,if you're from a small town to a bigcity. So, you wouldn't have met anyMuslims in Stalybridge. You wouldn'tprobably have seen any black or brownpeople at all. Once you're inManchester, you you would have done. So,it would have been more of a diversecommunity, a lot of Syrians. Big Jewishcommunity. Massive Jewish community,particularly in the exact area he movedto.So,the motive for him moving there, um, wasbecome becoming a Muslim. And I think

24:17 the real motivation was he startedwriting tothe>> [laughter]>> caliph of the Ottoman Empire.>> Who was the the leader of the Islamicworld.>> world.>> He started writing to him from the pub,which I think is wonderful.Uh, I just love to see this man in thisplace called Stalybridge writing to mefrom a pub.Uh, and he said, "Look, if people wantto understand what Muslims think andbelieve, we need to read the Quran. Theonly English translation, cuz as youknow, it's you meant to read it inArabic, the only English translation iswritten by a Christian. Well, I don'ttrust that. It's going to be biased,isn't it? So, get a Muslim who speaksEnglish to rewrite it. And he waswriting to him all the time and, youknow, giving him bits of advice andcutting out things from the newspaperand sending it off to him. When he died,I presume he had an Islamic funeral? No,

25:00 he didn't.No, he didn't. So, we were astonishedbecause we didn't know exactly where hewas buried. My dad found out and he wasburied at the other parish church, St.Paul's. Back in Stalybridge? Back inStalybridge, yeah. So, he had he had umwe don't know if it was a Muslim burialright. I I think probably would havebeen. And I think at some point it wouldhave occurred. But the a lot of Muslimswhen I when I do talks about him,they're really shocked by that andcurious and upset and about it. Theyfelt thathad did the family dishonor? Well, wedon't we don't know because workingclass people don't keep written records.There's no written records. We don'thave time to do diaries. You'd be a bitabove yourself writing diaries anyway.It just didn't happen.Um so,really what I had to try and get my head

25:43 around wasthinking like me, thinking like my dad'sside of the family, I've paid for thatgrave. I'm going in it. My baby son's inthere. My wife's there already. I'd liketo be there. And that's where mychildren are. They all live aroundthere. So, he came back to Stalybridgefor the last couple of years of hislife. And that's where he died.And then he disappeared from the family.>> Yeah.Nobody ever spoke of him again.The book's called His Own Man, cuz hewas. By Christina Longden. And you had aa big news channel contact you aboutthis, did you?>> yeah. Al Jazeera, yeah. What happened? Ithink they featured the story on the BBCand Al Jazeera were really interested inthe fact that there's there's a lot of

26:26 umthere's there'squite a big cover-up of Muslim heritagein this country. Everybody thinks,"Well, it only happened in the '60s."Well, you know, diaspora well, it goesway back before that. So, myself and anda lot of academics have been workingreally hard to try and unpick who werethese people, who were these communitiesfrom, how long have they been here, whoconverted. And they contacted me becauseas far as we're aware, I think there'sone other living relative umof Lady Evelyn Cobbold. And who's who'sthe I think she he's a great grandson ofher. And they said, "We really want tofeature him and your family.">> Was her people Muslim? Yes. So, she sheshe converted, but they didn't. So, butAngus is really proud of, you know, the

27:09 memory and the heritage. And And theysaid, "We want to do it from yourperspective, from your brother'sjourney, and from your journey, and thenbring your daughter into it." So, thenwe've got like different generationsdiscussing this. And I was reallyshocked because every time I've spokento publishers, people from the media,they're interested, they only want toknow about the lords and the ladies whoconverted. Nobody was interested ingrocer who's converted. And they were sofantastic. Al Jazeera They The actualproduction company that that did it forAl Jazeera, they said, "This is moreastonishing cuz he never left thecountry. He never received a formaleducation. He was highly intelligent. Hethought for himself. His family didn'tconvert, either. They just kind of didtheir own thing." So,

27:52 that's actually quite an amazing story,the fact that, you know, he did thisincredible thing and and you dredged itup>> [laughter]>> 100 years later. That must have been athrill though for you to be able to getthat out into the open. To be honest,I'm still in shock about it. Yeah. Itcame out last year. And is it stillavailable? It's on YouTube, yeah. Ithink you Al Jazeera British MuslimVictorians andyeah. Before we move on,Quilliam, tell me a little bit aboutthis man. Quilliam was fascinating. Andhe's the most well-knownVictorian English convert. And he wasborn in the Isle of Man.Um, and he moved to Liverpool, and hebecame a solicitor.He was a Methodist. He was known as atemperance child cuz I think at the age

28:34 of six or something he swore never totouch a a drop of alcohol touch hislips.And he, I think at the age of 28, Ithink, he A middle-class family, youknow, he was like I say, he was ahe traveled the world and he became aMuslim from meeting other peopleoverseas. And so he came back toLiverpool and he set up the first mosquewhich is in a terraced house. At thesame time, exactly in the same year inWoking, is the other first mosque, theShah Jahan mosque, which was built forMuslims in the same year. So it'sbeautiful beautiful purpose-builtmosques. So you've got the two mosquesopposite end of the country. AndQuilliam Quilliam was a reallyfascinating character

29:17 and he actually did a lot of pro bonowork for poor people, in particularwomen.Um women who whose husbands had hadcommitted adultery against them. Yeah,he took up really lost causes. I thinkhe took up some a couple of IrishRepublican cases as well that had beenprosecuted. So he was seen to be thegood guy of the lost causes and but alsodid set up this mosque which was Theyalso had an orphanage cuz sure if youknow Wuthering Heights, lots of littleorphans like Heathcliff running aroundin the streets ofduring that era. Sohe did a lot of good in the city and hewas a he was a a fascinating character.But and I love the fact that he he was Ithink again 28 years youngerthan my great great grandfather but they

29:59 had very affectionate relationship cuzhe appointed Robert as the vicepresident of the mosque. Fantastic.>> Which which yeah, that's quite quite aimpressive thing to have as But he washe was cunning. He was a cunningcharacter and and he knew he reallywanted to portray his religion as beingvery international.Now let's get back to university. Tellus about you coming to BirminghamUniversity and your experiences if youwould. Yeah, um big shock going toBirmingham andif anybody's ever been to BirminghamUniversity, you know, most of thestudents tend to live in Edgbaston atfirst, don't they? So very different towhere I was from, Edgbaston. All thesebig houses.>> [laughter]>> All these trees and so that was a realshock to me.

30:43 And and it's only nowyears laterI've been able to process why it was sodifficult for me and think a lot aboutit. And and I spent you get my parentson here and we laugh about it now, butthe first year I cried my eyes out. Iwas I was the girl in the corridorsobbing on the payphone cuz my pips hadgone and I haven't got any more money.And I I would describe it I mean maybethese days somebody would say well itwas anxiety, it was depression, it wasmental health. It it could have been allof those things, but in my head I wasutterly homesick, utterly bereft.A psychologist might say it wasseparation anxiety cuz I don't everthink I went through that with myparents so from a very loving close

31:25 family. And it was like having yourroots completely ripped out. And alsonot not so much the expectations ofyou'll do well. I mean it's as you knowacademia is a foreign language. So goingfrom somebody who felt quite bright atschool thinking I'm really thick. Allthese kids from these other backgroundsspeak differently, they livedifferently. And and they they didn'tseem to be authentic because I thinkeverybody's got the defenses up atuniversity. So if if you're quite asensitive person which I am,you you you sense that nobody's reallybeing themselves. And and nobody's goingoh this is crap, isn't it? And andeverybody's just out there to have agreat time and I just sat in my room andread books and hoping that I maybewasn't as thick as I thought I was.And I understand that because

32:10 I was the first of my family to go touniversity.Teachers when they say go to universityyou've got to go away from home. Butwhen I got to Manchester University Iwasso homesick.I had to leave. Yeah. And I wasfortunate that the tutor who admitted megot me an interview at Birmingham. I wasonly in Manchester for about 3 4 weeks.I couldn't stick it.AndI don't think people understood thatwhen you're from our backgrounds andfirst to go to university, and you'refrom very close-knit working-classbackgrounds,it is a wrench.>> It is. It It is It's hard to to explainto somebody. But But having said that,there were three or four others fromhigh six where we went going through

32:52 exactly the same thing. And And we'dkind of meet each other in the corridorsand goAnd you could see on their faces there'sthis rabbit-in-headlights.We're meant to be enjoying this. Weshould be really pleased. It's meant tobe the time of your life. We're utterlymiserable.And it was only by the third year that Iwas having the time of my life. Iremember I mean, I was at University ofBirmingham a little bit before you, '75to '78, then did my doctorate. But whenI was an undergraduate, the majority ofstudents doing history were from privateschools and that kind of background.>> Yeah.Absolutely.>> And I felt out of place.>> Yeah.And And it'sagain, you you just feel like you'vesaid the wrong thing. You misinterpretwhat people's signals are in a seminar.If somebody chuckles at something,

33:33 they're laughing at me, you know. And itreally is that sense of And then Andthen I remember as well, you know,one of the one of the the book I see,this is the other thing.You can't get the books from thelibrary. So, one, you can't afford tobuy the books, and then you meet allthese other kids who are just buyingthem from Dillons. And I can't afford tobuy books. I can buy one book, and andthen I'll have to sell it. And you can'tget them out of the library cuz they'reall out. And you can get short-termloan. You've got to read it in an hour.I don't know if they still do that, buttrying to read things in an hour. Andthen you'd read the wrong thing. So, Iwould just remember being askedone of the tutor's saying, "Well, that'sThat's a journalist. We don't readjournalists. That's not academic." But Iactually learned quite a lot from theNo, no, no. And you get marked down forit.

34:14 And it's it's this element ofthis academic snobbery, which, you know,that the entire institution survives ona certain way of writing and a certainway of researching, and I absolutely getthat. But it's the lack of sensitivityof what that young person's backgroundis.>> Yes. Andhas that child, cuz you have a childwhen you're at that age, just turning18. You know, has that that child had afamily that gets that could give thesupport emotionally, but also in termsof literacy, in terms of understanding.Can I go home and say to my mom, "Oh,can you help me interpret this essay? Ithink I'm getting it wrong." Have yougot that at home? And if you haven't,you might need extra help.>> No thought of that.>> No thought of that. And certainly ifyou've got any kind of impairment, orcertainly if, you know, for example,

34:57 with dyslexia, oh, it's just a completenightmare. Well, the first year that Iwas teaching, I had a student come tome, really upset female student. Shesaid, "I've been in a seminar, and thetutor's gone roundthe class, and asked them about thisquestion, and looked at me and went,'Oh, you're from a comprehensive, youwon't know anyway.'" I said, "You've gotto complain." But then people are scaredto complain because it is an elitist,classist structure.It it really is. And and and I was, asyou know, I'm a point of meeting you, Iwas I'm not coming back after Christmas.So, I'mNo, actually, no, it was afterChristmas. It was January, I think, thatI got you as a tutor.And I was like, "I can't hack this." Wasthis in your

35:39 January of your first year? What wasn'tit?>> Yes, so I made it to Christmas. Myparents were threatening me if I carriedon sobbing down the phone, I wasn'tgoing to go back.I even now, getting on the M6, I feelsick. It [laughter] all comes back tome.>> I understand that.>> That road to the university. I spottedthat in you. Yeah, you did.You did. You You said I don't know whatI've might have been a second tutor cuzback in those of the days when we hadone-to-one tutorials, don't get thoseanymore. You said to me, "You're just asclever as everybody else in thisseminar, if not more so."And oh, wow. And and you just you've gotto stick at it, you know, you you you'vegot to learn, but you've absolutely gotto stick at it. I think you said it'd bea crime if you don't [laughter]you you don't stay with this. So, it was

36:23 great cuz you just know you must havenoticed you must have sensed that I wasabout to cry or something.Well, I'd felt the same way atManchester and I didn't last it. No.Everything I wanted in life, I realized,was in Birmingham, me family, mefriends, me football club, the beer Idrank.Everything was here.Andit's thatcloseness thatoutsiderswho are used to moving away and movingaround don't understand.>> Yeah. And and and again, I think evennow days it'sit's changing a little bit, but there'sstill this thing of the whole universityexperience.>> Yeah.For who? Who's experience? What's WhatWhy is my experience less valid than

37:06 your experience? Why are the things Icare about that make meyou know, a happy young person[clears throat] who's who's doing wellin my research inferior to somebody elsewho wants to live it in a different way?Looking back, do you think there was a anegativity umtowards you becauseyou had a northern accent? Yes.Definitely. Definitely. That is, youknow, I was talking about this the otherday. There's an There's an exoticism ofof of of our cultures, isn't there? Butthere also is with working-class people.I used to work in, you know, the guild,the guild of students, and you get someof the the posh boys from King Edward'sacross the road and they say, "Ooh, Ireally like your accent." And I'mthinking,That's so strange.>> Yeah. You know, what what's that allabout? I mean, I love other people's

37:49 accents. We all think, you know, accentsare attractive in my family, but it wasas soon as I opened my mouth. And that'sso I I I've never been able to change myaccent. Um I can modify it if I have to,but and I and I absolutely There wasobviously something in me that thought,"You know better than me." Umand although I I felt thick andnorthern, I didn't want to be both ofthose, but I also wanted to to notchange. I felt that real sense of I didknow people that were that have losttheir accents. And I and I know, forexample, my brother, he he completelychanged his accent cuz he had to go inEgypt with his studies.Um and then now he's he's he's as Mancas anything now, but I think some peopleare

38:31 are more swayeduh they justEmma, my my best friend inBirmingham, as you know, Yeah, she shedid our class, didn't she?>> Yeah, she did. That's where we met andand it was only when I met Emma, Isuddenly felt at home because she tookme for who I was and she was interestedin me and and she's a kindred spirit.But she was so posh.>> [laughter]>> And she she was saying, "Oh, I I starttalking like you when I'm around you."And you know, I'll say path instead ofpath and bath instead of bath and I'venever really been like that.>> I I've never blamed a working-class momor dad or a lower-middle-class mom ordad that has pushed their son ordaughter to lose their accent becauseit's society's fault. But like you, Inever wanted to lose my accent.I didn't want to be different to my mom

39:15 and dad, to my nan and granddad, to mygreatuncles and aunts, the people I belongedto.Just because I've gone to university,did that make me any better than them?No, it doesn't.>> Absolutely not. Just different differenttimes, different opportunities.And I I also think I probably wouldn'thave gone nowbecause I got a grant. Yeah. Yeah, sodid I. My brother was at Leeds, I was atBirmingham. We both got a grant.Now it's a different kettle of fish. Andfrom that first class,you follow you you you came to myclasses We all did that. We all used toscribble on Carl's. Put your name up onCarl's and then oh, have they releasedwho's in his class? Oh, I've got on it.It's fantastic.>> [laughter]

39:56 >> It's a rugby scrum for Carl's. And youdid the special subject with me, didn'tyou?>> Yes, yeah. On working-class life.>> Urban poor. Yeah, urban poor. Yeah.Absolutely brilliant. What do you thinkyou got from university? Mhm.From university itself, um I thinka bit of independent living, um but itit's not it's not all it's cracked up tobe, let's face it.Um, but for me, it was that that thefriends that I made, particularly in thelast couple of years, and and and thatwas very much centered around yourseminars.Very much centered around that. And ifyou if you ask me, you know, whatknowledge in particular that I thinkalways stayed with me was it was the waythat people think about the poor insociety and the preconceptions towardspeople, um, paternalism.

40:42 And all that stuff has come back to mein later life. And also the, you know,immigration. I think you were the firstperson that ever that actually said, "Doyou know what? There is some amazingstuff that immigration has brought tothis country." Um, and you know, I'mlooking at the the local and the globalstuff which has followed me me throughlife. I always come I always end upboring my children going, "Well,in one of Carl's seminars with>> [laughter]>> Yeah, Mommy, you told us that.Your love ofyour your pride in your actionshas also led you intoa deeper appreciation of dialect words,hasn't it?>> Yes. Yeah.And funnily enough, again going acompletely reroute, we were in Africa

41:24 for 4 years in Namibia. Um,me, my husband, and the baby, as she wasthen. And one of the programs that wewere with with we lived in the Kalahariwith the San Bushmen. And one of theprograms that we were helping them to dowas to there's 10 or 11 differentBushmen languages in this in thatparticular region.>> click, isn't it?>> Click Khoisan clicks, yeah. And so, youknow, they couldn't even speak to eachother when we got them all together fora meeting. So, one of the things we'retrying to do was embrace mother tongue.And I'd never heard that thatphrase before, your mother tongue, andit instantly spoke to me. And and thatit goes back generations for me, andthat's why I love dialect. I'm reallyinto the Yorkshire dialect, not just theaccent. I think people get reallyconfused cuz we've had this discussion.

42:06 I'm going is there a Brummie dialect?Um, and and it is that bit that goesback generations. that and it's when youwere in your crib and you're hearingyour mother saying certain things.>> Yes. Me father saying certain things andthat bit that I think is so importantand that is really dying out. Dialectsare just dying.>> Yeah. And I think it's so important.And it gets people together. And we weneed to emphasize here that accent isthe sound of your voice, dialect are thewords that you use and the grammar>> The grammar. that you use. And andthat's the other bit that I've learnedas well, you know, it's a real Peoplethink grammar is only about standardEnglish or received pronunciation way ofwriting and and speaking. And theYorkshire dialect and other dialects in

42:49 in the UK as well absolutely have asystem. They have a code. It isn't justyou're writing rubbish or you'respeaking sloppily. You know, I will RodDimbleby who who's the president of theYorkshire Dialect Society. If I try andwrite something in Yorkshire dialect, hegets his red pen out.And he was a German teacher so he knowswhat he's talking about cuz so much ofYorkshire dialect is Germanic, yeah. Andone of the advantages with looking atthe Yorkshire and Lancashire dialectsis that the local newspapers often hadin the 19th and early 20th centuries adialect page. They did. And and it'sfunny you said that because my dadphotocopied loads of of one of thenewspapers. I think it must have beenearly 1900s and and it was Lancashire

43:34 dialect so he wanted me to compare theLancashire dialect with the Yorkshiredialect. Now as you know, that borderthere's very little in it. There'snothing in it. Certainly on the WestRiding of Yorkshire and once you're intoOldham, Saddleworth, Upper Mill,Marsden, Slaithwaite, all those areas,it's the same. And the entire the entiredictionary of the dialect was based onSamuel Laycock's poetry and his writing.Now he was born in Marsden, WestYorkshire, hopped over the hill,Saddleworth Moor into Stalybridge whoclaimed him as the Lancashire poet. Iwent off to Blackpool and and I thoughtthat's fascinating cuz this man andthere were there were plenty of otherbrilliant dialect poets as well, but hebasically just wrote down what he heard.And so a dictionary evolved from that.Whereas in unfortunate Birmingham,

44:18 the local newspapers never had anydialect pages. Onlyevery now and then they would include apiece really quite derogatory about theway that working-class Brummies spoke.Was there um I think again I might havementioned this to you before, in thetrades, so you know yours as you know myfather-in-law was in Birmingham, he wasa butcher, and I was chatting to himabout it was it called the backslang?>> Backslang, yeah. So So if you if yousaid four, it'd be roof. And yob, Ibelieve, comes from boy. Oh.Backslang. And and there was this way ofdoing it because you didn't want thecustomers to know what youyou'd be talking about the customers and>> So butchers had backslang, markettraders had backslang, and in Birminghamas well,

45:00 a light London but a different kind ofrhyming slang. So when we was kids, whenI was a kid, our mom used to say, "Comeon, up the dancers." Oh. Dancing bears.Oh. Stairs.Things like that. We said apples andpears. Yeah. Up the wooden hill. Yeah.To the stories we'll Yeah.>> [laughter]>> The Lancashire dialect, Lankey, is thatthe correct term? But there's differentdialects within Lancashire, isn't there?>> Oh yeah, there is. And and and it's thesamein in West Yorkshire as well. So you'vegot your West Riding, your North Riding,and your East Riding. Now, I think itwas Thatcher that decided that there wasa there was South Yorkshire. There's nosuch thing as South Yorkshire. There'sonly three. That's the word. Ridings.It's a Viking word. It means three. Andthey just decided they needed a before

45:42 because four's clearly what we're meantto be doing. Umand it's it's exactly the same inLancashire. And I'm sure most people cantell if you listen to somebody likePeter Kay, you can pinpoint exactlywhere he's from.>> Yes.Very different to a South Yorkshireaccent, and very different to an AndyBurnham Manchester accent. Completelydifferent in these worlds, these youknow, over that way as well. Yeah. and II wrote your letter with their Rsrolling Rs. After you left university,what happened? What you know what?Actually, you were a big I forgot allabout that. You were a big influence onthis because of your housing focus. So,the slum clearance, the urban poor, theconditions that they lived with. I gotum I was really angry about the fact cuzit's again the working class thing. Iwas really angry about the fact that theonly sponsorship you could get as a

46:26 university student was for a science.Yeah. Like and I didn't do science. Iwas determined there must be somebodyout there. There must be somebody and itwas the local government studentsponsorship scheme, Metro, based inSolihull then. Oh, I think it wasThatcher got rid ofthe Metropolitans.Um so, I had to write an essay.And my essay won. So, I won thissponsorship and I also won a littlebursary and as part of that in my secondyear summer, um I got a placement inhousingat Rochdale Council. So, that was thefirst job I ever did and I worked inhousing and I loved it. I absolutelyfell in love with it. So, from thatpoint on, never mind writing, I'm goingto go and be top of the social housingYeah. empire of Britain and I I loved itbecause it was halfway I suppose between

47:11 uh police and social services. So, youwere this you were the landlord and somepeople would instantly hate you, but youcould also have so muchpower to help people and to advocate forthem and to to root them to the thestuff that they needed. So, that was mybackground um and that's how I ended upmeeting my husband. He's more went toBirmingham City Council housing. So, ithousing's kind ofin the blood. Now, so your chap, IanYes. He's a Brummie. Yes. But his motherwill also tell youHe's half Jordan.>> [laughter]>> He's half Jordan and she's her accenthasn't changed either. I'm So, you meetIan. Yeah. Is that when you moved toWest Yorkshire? No, we uh we ran off toAfrica for 4 years. So, that was inNamibia. Yeah. The San is that I got I

47:54 got that right? The San Bushmen uharepersecuted. They losing their land. Theyturn them into reserves for animals.What about the people? Yeah, it's justthe same situation with the NativeAmericans and the Aborigines and theKalahari people, but the first people ofthe world. And absolutely like mostindigenous people just decimated justthe lowest of the low. They were seen tobe, you know,uh the scum of the earth. Also inNamibia, you had apartheid. So, a lot ofpeople don't realize thatit was under apartheid cuz it wasannexed by South Africa. So, they alsohad that. They lived under that as well.Where there's different again, thiswhole this strata in society. This year,this year, this year, this. You're

48:36 white, you're mixed race, then you'reblack, then you're Bushman. Right at thebottom.Um so, we worked um with them trying tohelp them to get them capacity to runtheir own areas and to fight the landgrabs that were being taken. To givethem back their names cuz they're allgiven Dutch Afrikaans names. So, youknow, they didn't even have their ownnames. So,>> to learn their languages? Oh, it wouldhave been impossible.>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]TheThe interesting thing with Namibia, theyhad English is is the, you know, theactual after independence.>> Yeah, lingua franca.>> Yeah. But, Afrikaans was also spoken bymost of the Bushmen. So, we often hadwhen I did my first book which wasAgain, comes back to you, your oralhistories of the working class women of

49:19 Birmingham.Um and I got hold of that cuz it reallyhelped me with my book.Um we were interviewing the San. So, ithad to be whichever language Khoisanlanguage they they spoke with them betranslated to Afrikaans, with them betranslated to English, and then put intothe book as a compilation of theirhistories of what had happened to them.How did you get that job? Oh, I justfell in love, Carl. And then ran off andand somebody said this girl can write.We need a writer. Cuz nobody else can dothis. Can you do it? And I went, "Oh,I'd love to."Fantastic.>> to. I was just really fortunate in theright place at the right time. And didyou live in the Kalahari? We were inYeah, we were in a place called Gobabis,which is just on the border of Botswana,which is last man's town before you hitthe border. And it was very wild. Then

50:02 you come back. So, is that when you goto West Yorkshire?>> That is. Yeah, then there was adeliberate reason for that.>> Come on then. Because Ian and I beforewe we kind of jump jump ship, we wereworking umsocial housing policy consultants forWestminster.Um and I was going to come back fromAfrica. They offered me my old job back.And so we got a big map out in Namibia,put it on the table in the office.And I said, "Oh, I want to go home. Imiss my mom so much." And I got to thatpoint I got used to being away from mymom, but I have a baby, a little girlnow, a little toddler.Um I said, "Look, there's a house forsale right opposite my parents." Andthen my husband went, "No!">> [laughter]>> We don't want to be that too near thatmuch cuz he loves them.

50:43 Um he said, "No, hang on, let's look atthe train lines." So, we looked at thetrain lines and I said, "Do you knowwhere I've always loved? Holmfirth. Lastof the Summer Wine." I used to cry overLast of the Summer Wine when I was inAfrica. I miss it. I miss the dales. Imiss the moors.Um we thought we would never ever everbe able to afford it, but we found alittle village nearby. And and it wasright near the both train lines betweenManchester and and the West Yorkshiretrain line to London. So, that was thereason we ended up there. And and afterI think you've livedAnd again, Ian's you know, Ian was bornand and bred in Birmingham. But onceyou've ended up somewhere where you seeso much landscape, you can't really goback. It's very difficult. So, and Iremember, you know, even now coming toBirmingham, I'm like,

51:27 "Wow!">> [laughter]>> Ian is involved in aan ethical coffee Yes. company calledDarkwoods.>> Darkwoods. Tell us a little bit aboutthat and how that came out and why it'sethical. It came out from the job thatIan had when he came back to England,which is the Lawn Young Foundation,which obviously I also work with. Andthat's all about helping farmers indisadvantaged countries basically, whoare really really struggling with theglobal supply chain, with thesupermarkets hammering the prices down.They don't know where whatever whetherit's rice or tea or coffee or cocoa orwhatever it is they produce in Africa orLatin America or Indonesia.They just basically have the crop takenoff and here's some money. They need to

52:09 argue for a better price. They need toknow what the consumers want so they canimprove the crop. They need to know howto fight environmental changes.I can't even begin to tell you thechange that we've seen in the last fewyears.>> Really? Absolutely shocking. And um thisis from the horse's mouth. This is fromfarmers saying it is so different. Wecan't predict the rain anymore. We can'tpredict we we we can't predict anything.So what we do is kind of help them invarious ways.Um so get a better crop, argue for agood price, make sure you're treatedwell by the big companies from theglobal north that are buying from you.So to empower them really. So the globalnorth would be Britain, France, USA,that kindThe wealthy, the affluent countries. Sofrom that we we got asked by a friend ofmine who's a local vicar to help some

52:53 Oromian refugees from Ethiopia.Um and we just kind of really what>> What kind of refugees? Or Oromian>> Oromo out from Oromo one of the bigYeah, that region. regions of theTigray, Oromo Yeah, and they've beenfighting for their own independence fromEthiopia as well. So we said it's notreally what we do, but we know that it'sreally famous as being the birthplace ofcoffee. Um why don't we help them bringsome coffee over and then we'll helpthem set up a social enterprise. So atleast, you know, they're earning somemoney for the community so they can buyschool books for the children. This isin Manchester. So we did that and we meta local roaster.And we basically became friends becausethey helped us. And they said, "Do youknow what? I think we can do this evenbetter. I think we can get a betterprice. I think we can get um actually

53:36 create a much more ethical coffeecompany than any of the ones out there."And that's where it all came from. Andhe took a huge risk. They got the bestroaster in the company Damian in thecountry Damian. And then Paul Mikaloniswho's the other business partner. Andthey took a big risk and said this is 10years ago now. We're going to set up areally properly. Not just it says on thelabel here's a picture of a happyfarmer. We're going to do this properly.And we're going to pay them better thanthe fair trade premium come. Fair tradeis fantastic. But we're going to paybetter than that. And we're going to doa really high-end coffee and so it allwent a bit crazy from there. So And it'sstill going strong. Going very strong.It's great It's just I I have to pinchmyself. Yeah. It's It's just wonderful.And are you still involved with the Lone

54:19 of Young Foundation?>> Yeah. Yeah. So what's your role therenow? Well, I work on the There's There'stwo programs. There's the internationalone which is My other love in in life isradio. Speaking to the right person.Absolutely love radio. Born and bredradio in the background.So we use radioAfrica and Latin American countries tohelp the farmers. So as you can imagine,everybody thinks Everybody's got phonesthese days. So even if a farmer inremotest Kenya has a phone, they won'tnecessarily be able to one afford datafor it, two access data. So we the radioradio is the one thing that they canaccess and can use. And you can reachacross thousands of miles. So we helpfarmers cooperatives in whatever country

55:05 we're working in to create their ownradio content for whatever crop thatthey're growing, whether it's rice orcocoa. So what are the challenges thatyou're facing? And next week we'll getin an expert from the buying companywill tell you how we can overcome thischallenge. So they can If they've gottext data, they can text in I'm having aproblem with certain pest, what can Ido? Or how can I improve my yields? Thebuyer is saying this. And we also stickon the back of that other issues thatare important to the communities. So forexample, women's access to education ordomestic violence. You can make sureyou're getting really good agriculturalcontent, but you're also getting asocial message at the back of it.>> Through the radio. All the guys aretuning in and they're getting told, youknow, this is how you should be treatingyour daughters. Um so it's it's theircontent. Um and if a funder says, you

55:50 know, in this region we think it'sreally important to get HIV awareness,we're having a terrible problem, thenwe'll staple that onto the content aswell. It's such important work aboutempoweringYeah. indigenous peoples. And listeningto them.>> Yes, not doing it for them, but doing itwith them. Yeah. Do you get chance tovisit any of these communities? If I II've been for donkeys, but butabsolutely if a funder says, we try notto because we're trying to keep as muchas possible everything in that country.>> control.>> Because we know how to do it nowbecause, you know, you've got your Zoomand you can you can do a learningacademy with the the So the thethe radio presenters will get trainingfrom us on how to put together really

56:32 good content and how to work with, youknow, a news channel or something. So wewe really wouldn't do unless a fundersaid it's very important to me that yougo there Yeah.>> as part of the funding package, but wewe try not to. Now I understand that.It's about the local people being incharge. Yeah. You're workingwith them. I I empathize so stronglywith that because for many years I'vebeen a member of Survival Internationalwhich fights for indigenous peoples, theminority rights group that fights forminority groups across the world.You've got that role.But then you evolve with the DialectSociety. Then you've also got umthis community investment company thatyou're aiming to become a charity pasttourism. Talk to me about the name first

57:17 of all and what you're trying to do.Well, I thinkI was getting to the point where I knewthe the one thing thatthere's so many divisive issues in theworld at the moment, isn't there? Andyou can never presume that somebody willhave the same view as you on somethingelse.But generally speaking, the one thingthat you can talk to anybody in thestreet is, "You see that building there?Do you know what that used to be?" Yeah.Yeah.>> live in that house there? Do you knowwhat that used to be?" And there used tobe a field there. And Andyou're often accused I've always beenaccused of nostalgia, partly becauseI've got such affection for where I wasborn and bred and my parents they youknow, they just they they didn'tgo on about it, but it was there. Youcan see it in them. And And I love the

58:00 fact that you can speak to anybody in anarea and they'll just say, "Look up, youknow,we can have a connection here. Did youknow that?" And so that it was basicallylet's get beyond the let's get beyond itbeing seen as just nostalgia. Actually,this is a real way of connecting withpeople. So,and and bringing people together fromdifferent backgrounds who would normallyhave nothing to do with each other. Yes,they might be in Tesco's, stood at thesame till, but they're not going to passthe time of day with each other. Theymight do in a rural village, but they'renot going to ever have the chance toconnect over something. So, we're we'rebasically doing it through storytelling,through the arts, and through justhistory. So, what whatever really takesyour interest. So, doing differentprojects, working with the libraries cuz

58:44 the libraries absolutely get this andthe archives see this. Andbecause the local and the civic historysocieties and the family historysocieties primarily tend to be morewhite Yeah.group of people. Um and they struggleoften. They're really passionate aboutwhat they do and they really want othercommunities to get involved and you'vegot this barrier thing with, you know,if I'm from, you know, if I'm from aSomalian community, I might not feelwelcome there.They're all white and you know, and orthey're meeting in a pub kind of thing,you know. What can we make spaces whereeverybody feels welcome? Whereas allthese people, like my dad who have gotthese great skills, can actually say,"Come on, I'll show you how to do it."What What it doesn't matter if you if

59:25 your your father arrived in 1960, we canstill find something. We can There's acensus. Do you know what a census does?Did you know Ah, yeah, you recognizethat part of town. That's cuz you werethere when you were six. And it's thiswonderful way of putting people togetherand actually say, "Let's forget thepolitics. Let's forget all this stuffthat you're different, you'redifferent." Actually, we're we're justpeople with stories. And And it's a veryimportant thing for any community wherethere are people of differentbackgrounds, but particularly inLancashire or Yorkshire where there isbeen two for too long a clear dividebetween the white working class and whatin many times was overwhelminglyKashmiri descent working class people.Yeah. And it's it's a really interestingone because I was I was lucky in that my

1:00:10 RE teacher, for example, who was only14, taught us aboutyou know, integration versus absorptionand you know, the different ways ofcommunities coming together. Shouldthere be forced integration? Does thatwork? And we have got into thissituation now um where you have verysegregated areas. So, you've got kidsthat all go to school together, but theynever see each other outside of school.>> Yeah. And parents that will be at theschool gates, but there's nowhere forthem to really talk to each other and toconnect. And I think particularly in thenorth of England, you know, we we getcriticized a lot for that. And it isn'tfor want of people wanting to. Generallyspeaking, it really isn't. When you Whenyou start talking to somebody,they'll say, "Oh, that was such a niceperson. They were so kind." And that'show you just you just build on it. It's

1:00:53 justbuilding friendships and spaces wherepeople can have a chat about things. AndAnd finding that commonality ofexperience that despite our differences,we have more in common than whatseparates us. Yeah. And stopping beingfrom scared from asking questions. Ithink it's it's that approach of, youknow,"Will I offend them if I ask this? WillI offend them if they ask that?" And Andyou know, and also being quite open andwilling for somebody to say, "You knowwhat you do in your family, Christine?That is so weird. We would never dothat. And then we just have a laughabout it, you know, rather than thisfear of offending somebody. And and justwhat I try to do a lot of the time it isgetting the humorous side of it into it.And unfortunately, when you get religion

1:01:38 and politics involved, people just feelthat you have to lose your humanity andyou have to read from a script. And andwhat could be better than chucking thescript away and being human? And youknow what? I will will say some thingsthat somebody might offensive. But whenyou get to know me, it's from the heart.And and that was always the same with mygrandparents. The the stuff that theywould come out with somebody go, "Oh,that's so politically incorrect." But doyou know that person? Do you know whythey use that language? And maybe if yousay some more some days, some peoplemight don't really like that term.Generally speaking, they'll go, "Okay,you're right, actually. Won't do thatanymore."Past truisms, why did you choose thename?I don't know. I just fell in love with

1:02:19 it. Just [laughter]the whole the whole truism thing of, youknow, that there's a reason forAgain, it's a it's a a bit like thestereotype, you know, thatwe have stereotypes cuz there'ssomething in them, you know, they'rethere for a reason. Butit's it's but we have to get past that.We have to get past regurgitating thesame old same oldstuff. I'm really taken with the truismspart of it.The past, yes, we can all understandthat. But if you say past truths, whosetruth? Yeah. Whereas truisms,it's a bit more open, well, a lot moreopen. Yeah. And it allows for variousbeliefs and backgrounds and truisms.Yeah. And and I think the whole point it

1:03:03 isjust getting outside of your ownupbringing and your own prejudices andand and and meeting somebody and ratherthan instantly defensive, that person isfrom that political, that personbelieves that, that person believesthat. That isn't my tribe. And it's thistribalism thing that I, you know, I I'mseeing more and more and more. It'sgrowing and growing and growing. And AndI think we all have to say, you know, Ithink one of the biggest problems, and Idon't know if you would agree with this,is that so manytowns in the mid-Midlands, the north,have been decimated with regard to jobs.They've lost manufacturing, the mills,steel works.

1:03:47 And you lose that, and you losesomething vital, because it's not onlyabout making things, it's about buildingcommunities. It is. And And And then thegenderissue as well is so important. Yes. It'sinteresting. My My son is 17, and he'sin his second year of an apprenticeship.He He didn't want to go to university.He's got all the qualifications. Notremotely interested. Not very differentto my daughter.UmAnd the one thing, I think my my husbandprobably agree with me on this, butduring lockdown, I That's when Irealized. I knew I knew he wasabsolutely bright enough to go touniversity, but he was not remotelyinterested in the stuff that was beingdolled out to him. And he's just all AndI I'd sit him next to me,but give him something with his hands.

1:04:30 He was absolutely brilliant. Lost in adifferent world. So, that's why he'she's doing what he's doing. And I And Ithinkparticularly, I'm again getting, youknow, going down the wholegender division thing. But But men inparticular have lost traditionally theroles and the jobs and the occupationswith the physicality of the body thatthey had in the past. And unfortunately,it's all now gone into the screen a lotof the time. So, not only are younot spending your days in the samephysical way that you would have done inthe past, but you're also quite lost,because you're listening to to guys whoare not traditional male role models.They're different role models springingup online with some crazy ideas and someawful ideas, and some very good ideas,

1:05:14 but unfortunately, they're not theloudest voices cuz they're not the clickbait. So, there is definitely this thingthat I've been lucky to see within myfamily, which is, you know, blue-collarworker. Dad goes to work, and and it is,you know, quite a traditional[clears throat] way of doing it, butthose traditional industries as in theMidlands as well,if you know somebody who's in ablue-collar job, it it's kind of like,"Wow, that's quite unusual.">> He smashes things with a hammer all daylong.And And the other thing that we need tounderstand is that although men had thatrole,women in the Midlands, the North,London, elsewhere,worked. They did, and that's also what Ilearned from you because that they umpin money. Yeah. Yeah. And And again,you know, people call it Well, they

1:05:57 called it pin money, but it's essentialmoney. It's essential money.>> And And that was the thing that that'sagain, it was great going back toeverything that you taught us in ourclasses, which was>> [gasps and sighs]>> the vast majority of women inStaffordshire and I have to work in themill.And And but then you'd be saying to me,"Well, what about child care?" You know,there were various ways around the childcare. It could be the grandmother, itcould be the aunties, it could be thatyou had a girl who was only a year olderthan your kids who lived in with you.They all went to work. So many of thewomen worked. It wasn't just, you know,this end of World War II, now women getjobs. Yeah. It really wasn't that way inthe North and and certainly in a lot ofthe poorer areas. It wasn't a It wasn'tthis luxury of, "Shall I go to work andhave a career, darling?" No, actually,

1:06:41 you don't really You've got to work. Youknow, when people say use that phrase,"But it was pin money." No, without thewoman's income, the family would havebeennot just fighting it off, they'd havebeen poverty-stricken. Yeah. And it wasthe same in the East Midlands, inLeicester, with thepeople involved in the textile industry.In Birmingham, all the women in myfamily worked, on both sides, infactories. Same Same on my husband'sside as well. Yeah. There was not thischoice of stay at home and and be ahomemaker. What's next for ChristinaLondon? I don't know.>> [laughter]>> What I would like to do um and what I'mhoping to be to be doing ummore of is just trying to put together

1:07:24 uhsounds a bit up itself a methodology ofhow to actually bring communitiestogether.Without it being faith-centered orpolitics-centered or you should all geton together better than you are doingcuz I say so and that's nice. Justactually let's look at the heritage ofthis country. Let let's look at wherewhere it where it's come from where wegoing.Uh and not again not not not the wholenostalgia wasn't everybody lovely. Youknow Peaky Blinders expert you know thatit wasn't all rosy glow, was it? It wasvicious and violent at times. But let'sgo back if people are talking aboutBritish values or whatever values. Let'sactually look what those values were.Um how can we piece together the rest ofthe history around us and the stories?

1:08:07 It's the it's the storytelling thatalways, you know,brings young peopleto life. And then they love even in highschool if you speak to some of the Thereare some teachers I have friends whowill read aloud to them at the age of16. You know, if you listen to what themedia uh some sections of the media willsay about a bunch of 15- and16-year-olds, the way that they'reportrayed, they still love being readto. My mate Leonora Rustamova who who'swho's an author wrote um Stop Don't ReadThis. That's what she did with all thenaughty kids, you know? They just wanteda story. And I think whatever your age,you know, everybody loves a story. Whyare we all so obsessed with TV, youknow? Because we like stories. You facedclass and accent prejudice at

1:08:50 university, so did I. And very much sothen later on in my career as abroadcaster with local radio.Do you think that class and accentprejudice is still there inelitist organizations. Yeah, but I thinklike all other forms of prejudice,they've just changed the code words thatthey use.They will say, "Well, the listeners saythis." There might be one listener. Youknow,um I think in some ways, hearingregional accents stronger than everis great, but there's a backlash againstthat. Andand you know, I would always say to ayoung person,we've we've had people come on theYorkshire dialect courses who speak verystandard English,

1:09:33 um and actually want to learn the accentin the area that they were born into ortheir parents have. Yes. And I had aconversation with a young woman whosaid, "I'm I I really want to I want totalk like this cuz this is kind of howI'm meant to talk andand I'm really embarrassed to say that."And I said, "Well, why is it that, youknow, we can have any other identity inthe world? We can we can say that, youknow, this is who I identify with.That's my group. This is my group. Butwe're not allowed to say, I can changethe way I speak. Why is that wrong? Whyis that not okay? Why why does it alwayshave to be this top-down approach? Whycan't it be, well, my mom talked likethat and I've kind of got out of thehabit and I'd quite like to get backinto that habit. Why is that soWhy is that so I don't know. Don't judge

1:10:17 me on the sound of my voice. Judge mewhat's in here. Yeah.And also, I'm allowed to change. I'mallowed to think differently aboutthings and there is, you know, there isa sense in society which is, again, youhave to be rigid in the way that you'vealways acted and behaved and and I thinknow is the time to say,well, you know, who are the people thatI enjoy being around and and would theyjudge me if I I started to change myhair or, you know, if I changed the wayI spoke slightly andit's it's it's strange when moreself-consciousera than ever before, aren't we? Butactually, the way that you speak, peoplereally slam you about it.>> I know my parents laugh at me wheneverI'm on the on the radio.They always say you've gone so broad.

1:11:01 And this has been said about me in jobinterviews as well. But when I'mnervous, I go even broader. But we alsosound broader when we're speaking on theradio because it amplifies the accent.Yeah.Where do people find out more aboutChristina Longden, the Lorney YoungFoundation, the Past TenseCIC, the book about your great greatgreat grandfather? Well, the bookyou can There's two books. So the firstone is the hardcore research researchstuff, which I deliberately didn't wantto do it in an academic style becausethat excludes people. Real issue withthat. Don't get me started on that. Soit's written in plain English. It'shopefully an intelligent read. There'sso much in it. It's really It's a real

1:11:44 really And then the other one is calledImagining Robert. Yes. Which I wrote indialogue. Cuz I'm a very dialogy kind ofwriter.And that's where I put in the amazingfamous people that he met like EmmelinePankhurst, who lived near in Manchester,and Quilliam, and all the amazingpeople. But I also in some of thechapters tried toimagine what his wife would have thoughtin in a monologue style and what hisdaughters would have thought about why'sdad gone and done this. UmSo that is kind of the the one from theheart really. The other one's from thehead.They're all on Amazon. His Own Man,Imagining Robert, and Past Tense. Youjust Google Past Tense and you'll findLorney Young Foundation again. JustGoogle that and

1:12:26 and some point you'll just be bored todeath.I said at the start I'm proud of whatyou've achieved. I don't want to finishup with saying that.Tina, I'm very proud of what you'veachieved. Thanks for joining me. Thankyou. It wouldn't have happened if itwasn't for you, Carl. Thank you.