Roifield Brown

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0:00 I'll say something which is maybe alittle bit politically incorrect. I'mmore English than I'm Jamaican. I'mEnglish of Jamaican extraction and it'sin that order. English working classpeople in this country have actuallybeen very accepting of other cultureshistorically. Hip-hop came out ofJamaican immigrants. So, withoutJamaican immigration to New York,there's no hip-hop. My grandfather hadum one of the few West Indian groceryshops.>> Yes. She walked in, saw my dad and uhthe rest is history.>> Hello there. I'm Carl Chinn and this isthe podcast Our Lives, Our Stories.Throughout my life, I've always been

0:42 interested in finding out about people'sbackgrounds,their their motives, their hopes andaspirations, their dreams. And that'swhat this podcast is about, delvingdeeply into the lives of the folk I'mgoing to be talking with. And today, I'mreally chuffed to be saying I'm going tobe talking with Roy Feld Brown. RoyFeld, welcome.>> Uh thank you for having me. I feel Ifeel honored.>> Now, I'm going to do a bit of a big upfor you here. Entrepreneur, businessperson,podcaster,advocate for all good things to do withBirmingham, transatlantic person,and Brummie.

1:23 >> Very proud of being a Brummie. Veryproud. I I wear that badge wh- whereverI go. Um I big up our city, our relativetolerance, and I think that in many wayswe're exemplar of Britain, that we areincredibly forward-thinking.My problem is with this city is that wedon't shout about um our plus points umenough. But, so proud of being aBrummie.>> Take me back then. Your your childhood,your growing up, your like your mom anddad. Let's find out about them.>> Mom and dad, both Jamaican, came toEngland in the early 1960s.Uh they met in Small Heath on MonsStreet. My grandfatherhad um one of the few West Indian

2:07 grocery shops. And my dad worked forhim, and my mom worked for BSA.>> Yeah.>> And she she was the office junior. Shehad to go and get the biscuits. Shewalked in, saw my dad, and then anyexcuse to come to go back to that shopto get the biscuits. And it was my aunt,uh my dad's sister, who said, "Have younot noticed this girl keeps on comingin?" UhAnd and only wants you to serve her.Whenever it's me to serve her, uh shedilly-dallies and stuff, and then uh therest is history.>> Tell me what the names are and wherethey grew up in Jamaica.>> So, my mom is Joyce. She grew up inSaint Andrew.Um in a little district which doesn'texist anymore called Somerset. And mydad's from Saint uh from Saint Thomas,

2:50 sorry.Uh a little town called little district,sorry. It's not a town.Um called Hillside. Um so, whenever I goback to Jamaica, I always go back toHillside. And you there's extendedcousins of cousins of cousins, and theBrown family name um is writ largethere. And there's a little cemetery,and1848, one of my kind of ancestors hasgot this little grave, 1848. And it'sjustI'm very connected to to the island ofJamaica. But, I'll say something whichis maybe a little bit politicallyincorrect. I'm more English than I'mJamaican. I'm very clear on that.Jamaica

3:33 just played Curaçao in in the World Cup.And we drew, so we're going to go gointo the qualifiers. And I say we.But, if Jamaica play in England>> Yeah.Do you know what>> I'm a Brummie. I'm English of Jamaicanextraction. And it's in that order.>> Take me back to your mom and dad inJamaica, up in the hills, countryside?>> Yeah.>> I said I've never been to my mother'sdistrict cuz it nobody lives thereanymore.>> Right. She She never goes back there. Itgot completely and utterly depopulatedand I think it's one of the things whichdoesn't get talked about enough aboutemerging economies is they have a theyhad a brain and a brawn drain.Uh so

4:15 it in that the the 10 years prior toJamaica becoming independent in 1962,we all know about the Windrushgeneration, but you think about thatwhat that did to that island. The mostambitious, the young, the vigorous, theuh you know, they left. And so my mom'sdistrict does not exist. Nobody livesthere anymore. So, but my dad uh liveduh grew up in a little village calledHillside.And and that was right by the hill andit's the end of the road.>> Really?>> So, so the road stops there. So, theroad goes from Hillside then into aplace called Seaforth, then into MorantBay, which is important in Jamaicanhistory cuz Paul Bogle and the Morant

4:58 Bay Rebellion. But just explain to toeverybody, this was the Morant Bay whenthe the the former slaves stood up forthemselves and said we're not having thecontrol of the the white people.>> slavery formally ended in the BritishEmpire in the early 1830s, 1832. AndMorant Bay Rebellion is about 20, 30years after that, but you still havethis colonial systemof control.And it's prohibited that black peoplecan't do this, can't do that, etc., etc.Um and it's aum a local vicarum who basically says no.>> minister, I think it was, wasn't it?>> And he was a mixed-race heritage. And

5:42 then you have Paul Bogle, who's this theyoung black man who kind of formantsthis kind of rebellion andthere's a statue to him in Morant Baybecause he there areheroes of Jamaica andPaul Bogle is probably the mostforemost.The rebellion is put down brutally.Butmy father is always incredibly proud ofthe fact thatnot only that Paul Bogle stood up forblack people for for Jamaicans but alsois from St. Thomas>> his parish his parish>> when the the dance the Bogle was a thingin the early 1990s he he will say youknow but that that's Paul Bogle you know

6:25 that's you know that's that's freedomthat's defiance etc. incredibly proud>> Did your dad talk to you about hischildhood his upbringing and did yourmom?>> Yesmom less soumbut dad absolutely he was brought up byhismother and grandfatherhis father Vernal Brown who had thewho who had the shop in Mon Streethe he did such a classic his story wasso classic so he left Jamaica 1944 theyear my father was born and he went toConnecticut. There was a scheme for

7:09 West Indians to go and help the Americanwar effort by working on the land. So hewas part of that. He comes back toJamaicafor a for a couple of years then goes toEngland and so he is literally theWindrush generation. He wasn't on theEmpire Windrush but he would have beenin England in Birmingham right about1950.>> He's a pioneer.>> Totally was a pioneer.He stays in England for 20 years andthenasks for was is expression he asked formy father to then to come to England asa teenager to work with him in the shop.There's a whole story around that. Thenhe leaves Birmingham in 1970. So, I'mborn, but I don't remember him. I'm I'm

7:52 like one and he goes to then to Boston.So, my grandfather led this latemid-20th century, late 20th centurypattern of migration, which literallyall literally not all, but many blackpeople in the Caribbean took. America,um because of the war effort, Englandbecause the empire called you, etc.,etc. Um so, my father is brought up byhis grandfatherand he he took and that's really hisfather.And he talks about him and hisgrandfather,umworking on the land.Education was a real big part of

8:37 like my father's life, but he's so closeto his grandfather. And he also tellsthis beautiful story about, um whenSputnik was launched, which was in 1957,and him and hisgranddad looking up at the sky.And and he says, "I saw it."Oh. He said, "Sorry." And he says, "Atthe time I thought he really did seeSputnik." Yeah. He says, "We werestaring upat the sky, at the stars."And then he says, "As soon as granddadsaw it, it Sputnik disappeared." And hesaid, "For years I thought granddadreally did But he was just pulling myleg." But he was so close to hisgrandfather. But his mother,umshe had this real seminal You're goingto make me tear up here. Had this real

9:21 seminal place in in the district becauseshe was called teacher by everybody.So,when he was a child,like and she's a young woman in her 20s,she wasthe village, the district teacher forprimary children.And so this is late 1940s.Shegetsan award. No, she's awarded by thegovernment of Jamaica in the early 1970swith a recognition of being a theteacher. She was doing thisby voluntary donation.>> Yes. Yeah.>> You know, we're talking the end of the

10:03 road, this district.And she were andparents would come to her and give herwhat whatever they could afford for herto educate the children. In the 1970s,the Jamaican government in recognitionof 20 odd years of her doing this, said,"You are we're now going to give you asalary. You are the teacher." So she hasa school. So our family still has theschool in in Hillside.Andshe died in early 2000s. Actually inEngland, she came to England basicallyto die, really, for the last 5 years ofher life cuz she just couldn't reallylook after herself.But you go back to Hillside.

10:48 And her name isn't Louise, it's teacher.For three generations, she was theteacher. Not even the just teacher, youknow.>> Wonderful.>> Yeah. How important is it for youhaving said that you're an Englishmanbut proud of your Jamaican heritage tobe able to get back to 1848 cuz it's sohardfor black folk because of the evils ofslavery to get back at as far as thatwith their family history. Well,1848you're a historian. I'm I'm a student ofhistory is the year of revolutions. Sothe fact it was 1848 like really liketouched me anyway. So when Europe was inflames, you had the Chartists in in in

11:31 in in Britain.Anda cousin of mine, Robert, on my mother'sside, he's a cousin of mine, actuallywent down tothe Mormons have um a heritageIt's huge. They have done so much workfor family history becauseeverybody that becomes a Mormon, Ibelieve, and I may be wrong on this,they have to find out the whole familyhistory.>> Yeah.He went down to South Kensington. Thisis a good 15 years ago, quite some timeago now, and dug into our familyhistory.We could go back to 1831.>> Oh my goodness, that's incredible.>> incredible for black folks because ofslavery and people's births not being

12:15 documented. So, a year before theBritish Empire formally abolishesslavery, we had um an ancestor who'sdocumented.Andumhe was called a Creole,which meant he was just born in in inthe in the West Indies, but he's putdown as a Creole.>> Which normally means mixed race, doesn'tit? Which would have been the the ownerwould have rapeda black woman,and the child would have then become aslave.>> And we know thatthis Creolething, as you said, was wasit must have been accurate because whenhe died, and the thingsthe 18

12:59 80s,he had shops, he had property. So,we all speculate that his father, theslave owner, basically recognized himinformally cuz he was born a slave, onlyyou know, but then ended up withproperty.>> Set him up a little bit.>> Yeah, set him up, which happened morefrequently than than hence in placeslike Haiti, you had this uhuh this Creole class, mixed-race class.>> Like>> Doc Duvalier and the others.>> Exactly, who are descendants of that.So, it happened more than uh we we wekind of recognize. And then you havethis structure of structure of society.So, we could go back

13:42 to then.>> What brought your mom to Birmingham?>> So, my mother's father, uh ReginaldCallum, he came to Englandand he was an amazing man. Totallyself-taught. Didn't go to school. Grewup an orphan. Taught himself how toread, write, and play the piano.And hefollowed the call of many West Indies,many Jamaicans in the the late 1950s tocome to England. And his pattern wasvery typical in that the men went first.Um so, he's he's married to actually Hewasn't married to my grandma at thetime. I remember asking grandma and

14:25 grandpa whenwhen they got married. And they said,"The early 1960s." I was like, "What?But mom was born in the lateBut anyway,>> Yeah, but they were courting for a longtime.>> They were common law. Easily the bit,you know, they they were living togetherfor for a long time.There's not enough work in Jamaica.So, he goes to England. And I think heHe wouldn't have been British Leyland atthe time, but he worked in a carfactory. And that's a classic pattern.He's coming to do manual labor, and thenyou save up.And then after a certain amount of time,you ask for your wife, your children tocome. You know, you ask for them to come

15:08 over.Um but it was incredibly expensive. So,when my mother came, she came with hermom and my Auntie Mavis. And then thenext year it would have been two more ofher sisters and the next year afterthat, next year after that.Umso yeah,andhe would have saidinitially when he came to England, cameto Birmingham, "I'm only coming here fora few years.">> Five years they used to say.>> Yeah, but by the time grandma and my momand my auntie May came, he thought,"Nah, we we need to get the family overfrom Jamaica.">> Very important points that you've madeabout the

15:50 the devastatingif ongoing effects of slavery,of imperialism, of the difficulties thatJamaica, Barbados, St. Kitts, Nevis,Trinidad, etc. are still facingeconomically.In the late '40s, early '50s, it wasAmerica the men were going to, then theAmericans stopped that, and then itbecame more the United Kingdom. I feelvery strongly that we should recognizethat deep bondbetween Birmingham, which I know therewas a a bigger black community inLondon, but in many respects Birminghamis the Jamaican capital of England.>> Listen, I I couldn't agree more withyou. And as a kid, I was always really

16:33 struck that when we went down to Londonfor family occasions, weddings, orwhatever,um there were as many people of Africandescent in London, which you didn't getin Birmingham.Birmingham waswas West Indian and actually Jamaicanand the other people of West Indiandescent, their children said they wereJamaican.>> Yes, but they didn't they came like yourfamily from St. Thomas, fromWestmoreland, from Port Antonio like myUncle Johnny Brown who married my AuntieVi in the mid '50s when white girls werenot marryingblack chaps.Let's move on a little bit. You You comealong. Uh which school did you go to?Tell me a bit about your schooling.

17:17 >> I went to Greenholm School.So, I think technically it's still PerryBarr, but it's the it's thethe start of Kingstanding Road. Um verymuch an upper white working-classand lower middle-class areafull of nice interwar semi-detachedhouses. I went to Greenholm School. I amoneofIf there were 20non-white kids there in that wholeschool, probably only just 20. So, II always I always feel like I'm in theminority, but I don't have a problemwith it. I don't have a problem with it.Um

18:00 I loved Greenholm School. I loved mychildhood. My mom and dadMy dad was a bus driver. My mom workedfor the council.And shows you how the economic paradigmhas shifted that my dad is a bus driverand my mom working for the council doingclerk type duties.Withinum the child was born and within like 1year they could afford to buy a house.We were the only black family on thatroad, the only family of color on thatroad, and we were there for 11 years.When I left, there was one other blackfamily on that bit of the road. I grewup in a white I say upper working-class,lower middle-class area.Um yes, I was called names, not every

18:45 day.Umand I had an idyllic childhood. Then Iwent to Great Barr Comp.Uma senior school Um and I was lazy. Theteachers said I didn't try hard enough.They they were correct, but my parentsalways believed in in in education.The So, I had guitar lessons. I had someextra tutoring.Um but I always survived off the, youknow,off my wits in terms of not reallybuckling down and doing work. But, endedup with six O levels. I did kind of didall right. Yeah.>> And what did you do after school then?>> After school, I went to umSutton College for 1 year. I messed

19:29 around. Then I ended up going to BatleySchool of Art.>> Batley? In West Yorkshire?>> I Iloved West Yorkshire.I I remember the first dayum going to collegeand then this is 1988. Of course,there's no mobile phones.And I wanted to ring my mom and dad tosay how college had gone that day. Iwalked into a pub in Heckmondwike.And cuz that's where I was living, inHeckmondwike. And I walked in.Basically, I you know, I've gone goingto art school. I'm wearing a cowboy hat,a shiny blue waistcoat. I don't knowwhat trousers I'm wearing, whatever. AndI walked in and it was a scene out of a

20:11 movie. The whole pub stopped stopped. IwentAnd I I mean walked into to the bar andsaid, "Where's the phone?" And theysaid, "Yeah, son, it's just roundcorner."And theneverybody started talking again.I loved Heckmondwike. It made me realizehow much of a Brummie I actually was.I I remember going toum I did audio visual design, by theway.Um, which has really stood me in goodstead because, you know, looking at thisset up here, I kind of know, Iunderstand it. UmI remember I had to go and do somethingand somebody says, "You're going to goon the Muslim street." It's 1988.And I'd never seen uh women covered from

20:56 head to toe. That didn't happen inBirmingham back then. It didn't Itdidn't. Now, yes. Then, didn't. And Iremember feeling this is different andfor methis wasn't what I was used to.Birmingham was integrated. Don't get mewrong, you still had concentratedpopulations of non-white folks, butactually and and divisions and andthe Lozells riots had already happened.So, I'm not saying this was was aperfect utopia, but just think we wereworking through it.I I do. I do. But, I rememberfeeling that the the the culturesin

21:41 in West York in that little town ofBatley were much more divided than how Ithought my hometown was.My hometown is now become divided, butback then we weren't. And someone saidthat there was the Muslim street. I'llnever forget that. I remember walkingonto that roadand then there were women covered, andthere werebrown kids playing, and I hadn't seenthem in any other bit of Batley. And Isaid that that's that that's wrong.That's wrong.>> As if they were just pushed to one sideand forgotten.>> Completely completely.>> How long were you in West Yorkshire?>> Only a year, then I went down toWorthing for 2 years, finished my

22:24 studies down well at they kicked me out.But, yes IWell, I did technically finish mystudies so they kicked me out. So,Worthing close to Brighton, completelydifferentexperience.And it was the first time I was stoppedby the police.And it happened three times in the firstmonth.I was walking home from my thengirlfriend's at umuh say 11:00 at night. It wasn't thatthat late, but 11:00 at nightpolice car pulls up. Where are yougoing? Home. Where's home? TiringStreet. You knowWhat's your name? Ruper Brown. Likethis. I've never been stopped by thepolice. I'm like 18, 19.A week later,

23:09 the police stop me again. All right? Andit's again, I'm walking home from agirlfriend's. No, where you going? Home.Uh where you know, where are you comingfrom? My girlfriend's. Where does shelive? And I went I gave the address. Thethird time it happened,I'm on my way to college in the morning.It's like 8:30.And this car pulls up, police car.Hello. Where are you going? I went, whatis going on here? Right? I've never beenstopped by the police in my life. It'shappened three times in a month.And they said, so let's just stop. Let'shave a conversation. He says, no. Isaid, I'm going to college. Whatcollege? I went, you There's only onecollege in the whole of Worthing. You

23:50 know where I'm going. Right?And he said, come on. Stop. Have aconversation. I said, I'm going to belate. I said, I've done nothing wrong.I'm walking to college. And I'll neverforget the police. He says, well, weknow where you live, Rory. We know whereyou're going. And they drove off.I had a wonderful time in Worthing.But again, it reinforced my sense ofbeing a Brummie.And even though I grew up in a majoritywhite neighborhood, King's Standing, butthat point I'd actually moved to NewOscott, Perry Common. UhBut that really shook me up.The There are parallel Britains.>> Yes.

24:34 >> Which aren't even just based aroundethnicity, but also about a wider kindof acceptance.ThatI I did some work recently on I put upin the bar that I own, we have these TVscreens, and fundamentally they're as anadvertising mechanism. Two for onecocktails on Fridays, this and that. Yougot car chains coming to do do a talk onwhatever. But in between those, you'vegot to put a little bit of content on.And generally it's classic old picturesof Birmingham.The Rotunda being built or, you know,Sparkbrook in the 1950s where it's justtotally unrecognizable. That type ofthing. I put up some footage about the1981

25:19 Lozells Sports and Handsworth riots.And one of the stats which I left up onthe screenis 70% of black youth between umum the ages of 16 and I'll say 25. Ican't remember exactly. 70% in the lastyear been stopped by the police.>> In the last year?>> Yeah.And it's one of the reasons why there'sall these tensions.I didn't experience that.You know, I didn't grow up in Lozellswhere there was a large non-white blackcommunity. And also, 1981 I'd have beenbeing too young. I'd have been about 13or or whatever.But growing up inin Kingstanding Perry Barr,

26:03 I didn't experience that. I didn't Ididn't I didn't experience that eventhough we were a minority. I I'm notprescribing as to why that happened butand why people young black men like mefrom those neighbors didn't experiencethat. But me going to Worthing>> gave you the same experience.>> Gave me the the same experience andand and and reinforcedthat little bit nook of Birmingham whichumI was actually from. That that had neverhappened to me.>> That experience in Worthingcould have embittered you.Could have radicalized you in differentways.Did it? No. No.Um

26:46 there is one partof me which really believesinwe should see people for who and whatthey are, but then also that there is agroup dynamic around difference. So, Imoved to Winchester because mygirlfriend at the time I met inWorthing, she wanted to finish her BAum in Winchester. One year, a HND'sgoing to be converted into a BAumand we had a room in a house owned by avery nice, well-meaning umwhite woman.And she sayswe were sat on on the sofa

27:30 and uh and she said"Where are you from?"And I went, "Birmingham." And you know,"Haum uh where are you from?" And Ithought, "Well, this woman knowsBirmingham." I went, "Uh Perry Barr."And she goes, "Ha.""Where are you from?" And I thought,"She really know I I actually said I wasborn on King Standing Road." I went,"Oh, you mean my parents?" Nobody inBirminghamwhite, brown, black would have asked methat question. They They would haveassumed some stuff.And then that's that. But I was inWinchester. AndAnd I remember the the the pennydropping when I went, "King StandingRoad." And I went, "Oh, you mean my momand dad? They're They're They're They're

28:12 Jamaican."And I thinkthere isthere is racism, there is prejudice, butalso there iscuriosity which is sometimes confusedwith a little bit of of ignorance.To her, growing up uh in WinchesterI was relatively alien. Somebody lookedlike me.Whereas somebody in Birmingham, you canbe totally right but they'llHe's like, "These people exist amongstus. People that look like this."Umand I've never forgot that.She was utterly well-meaning.Somebody could have taken great offensewith the

28:54 But actually, with herbackground, her history, where she grewup, there were no people of color. It'ssomething very interesting to me becauseI'm deeply interested, as you know,where people come from. Now, what I'mand I've actually rephrased that overthe years cuz I don't want people tothinkis he trying to find out, you know,something negative? No. So, what I'verephrased it now is, "Where are yourpeople from?">> Yeah.>> Because I just want to know. I want tolearn>> Yeah.>> about different people's experiences.But you're right, it's a difficultquestion to ask.But you've got to be frank correctly.>> But>> it's led me tomy belief inwhom whom I am. And there's this umthere's this theory called ethnogenesis.

29:41 The best way to describe it is um whenthe the Danes, the Jutes, the Angles,and the Saxons come to Britannia andthey create England.There's lots of kind ofum DNA evidence that actually they yessettled in Kent and East Anglia.But actually, the DNA of people who arenow let's say in the Midlands is thesame as the Welsh. You know, there'shardly any difference. So,why is it then that uma lot of these Celtic-speaking Britonsuh became English. And it's because theywent, "You know what? To get on,>> Yeah.

30:22 >> uh we've got to stop speaking Celtic,speak English,and then within three generations,they're English. They forgot they wereCeltic.>> Yeah, they've forgotten.>> Completely forgotten. I just believewith West Yorkshire, there was a a Celtone of the last Celtic kingdoms inEngland was called Elmet. And there's aplace in South Yorkshire called Elmet.They color and they've done DNA samplesofmen and women fromthose parts in Yorkshireand very English parts of England butvery big DNA tied into the Britons.>> 100% and how I got to understand myidentity isum

31:04 I am who I say I am.>> Yeah.>> You can have an opinionbut I am who I say that I am. But Irespect and I understand why you mighthave an opinion as to who I am and I saythat I'm 51% who I say I am. However, Ishould respect the 49% of how peoplemight perceive me.And but but to do that you've got tounderstand their journey.SoI will say that I'm English, I'm aBrummie, of Jamaican heritage. I alwaysdo come from it inin that order becausemy cultural um viewpoint of the world isactually through an English lens.And it doesn't matter how black and

31:47 radical you want to be, right? And andI'll say the example I will give is whenI go to JamaicaI say the roads are bad because mycultural norm of roads is an Englishroad. That's how muchEnglish socialization has actuallyformed my view of the world.Right? I go to the roads are bad. Now,if I was Jamaican cuz in Jamaica theroads are good. Yeah.>> Yeah. Yeah, I see your point.>> You're steeped with this stuff. Um myaspirations are colored by beingEnglish, by being a Brummie. Umsocial integration isreally formed by being a Brummie.

32:30 Yes, I'm black but actually thatsocialization and the way that I speak,the way that I think I think Trump's ummy parents uh ummy parents'nationality.And it's interesting even even my motherand my father my father would say she'sshe's a proud Jamaican, but she shewould say yeah, I'm kind of English too.Whereas my dad was like no, no, no, no,I'm I'm Jamaican, I'm Jamaican,whatever. But it's also to understandwhy that woman in Winchesterfor her I I wasn't because day-to-daywhen she'd do her shopping, when shewhen she goes about her business, shewasn't bumping into people like me,whereas somebody in Birmingham wouldhave who was white.

33:12 So, they might have said, yeah, youknow, yeah, you are English type type ofthing or or British, maybe that's the,you know,a label.Andbut and they'd qualify it, but shecouldn't qualify it. So, I'm I'll sayI'm 51% who I say that I am. I'm 49%I understand why somebody might have adifferent opinion.And I'll say this ethnogenesis thing isis really really important because itgoes to the heart of maybe the reasonwhy we have all these flags going up allover Birmingham. I think it's reallyquite interesting. Many of the peopleputting up the flags would not callthemselves classically racist at all.They'd just say, I'm English.And many of them would say, we just want

33:58 people to adhere to or to espouseEnglish British values. And many of themwould be having a curry at the weekend,yeah, liking a little bit of UB40, oh, Ilove that little bit of reggae andwhatever, right? So,it's not that they don't have some ofthem might won't have prejudiced views.It's not that some of them won't be outand out racist, butsome of them won't. And in many ways,English cultureis incredibly inclusive in many manyways. And I think some of us on the leftneed to recognize that for all theills that the British Empire has donethroughout the world, there's no doubt

34:41 about it. We talked about the Morant BayRebellion, which had brutally put downby by British troops in in Jamaica.UmEnglish working class peoplein this country have actually been veryaccepting of other cultureshistorically.Um where it's Indian corner shops,curry, and within music, Jamaicaninfusedrhythms and stuff been accepted and beenbecome English and British, right? And Ithink we need to be able to recognizetwo things can be true at once. BritishEmpiredid some terrible stuff throughout the

35:23 world,it's Mau Mau Rebellion being, you know,put down brutally in in India. Thefamine the famine during the SecondWorld War with British neglect,what the potato famine in Ireland. Thatis true.Also, it can be true that white workingclassculturehas been relativelyand it is optimum word here, acceptingof other cultures post the Second WorldWar. Been relatively It's not beenperfect by any stretch of imagination,and I'm really clear when I say whiteworking class culture.>> Let me take you now then to afterWinchester, and you end up some How does

36:08 this happen that you become a podcasterin Canada and the States?>> So, after Winchester, I moved back toBirmingham. I have a shop in theArcadian for a couple of years, moved toManchester. It's not a disaster.The disaster is I don't know how to keepbooks. Um we actually sell a lot ofclothes, but I don't know really whatI'm doing. I'm 23. Um, I'm having fun.Um, it was great coming>> clothes shop.>> Yeah, it's a clothes shop. It It wasgreat coming back to Birmingham and Ikind of really blagged my way intohaving a shop at the arcade when it wasfirst built. And the reinvention ofBirmingham fundamentally really startedwith the Arcadian>> Yes, it did.>> Um, which is one of the better

36:50 redevelopments of our city. In fact,amongst the best one.>> Yes. And that little area of Birmingham,Hurst Street, was also incrediblyinteresting. It's still interesting now,but not as interesting. Lots of uh,second-hand clothes shops. Anyway,whatever. I do that. I go to Manchesterfor a year. Um,then I end up in London. I I was inLondon for the best part of 20 years. Iended up having two children there, Noahand Ella, who are now with me at theshop, uh, sorry, at the bar, um, atTemper and Brown. Um, I got married inthe late, uh,2000s.Then, uh, that marriage didn't work.And 2014,

37:34 um, when the woman I was married to,um, said she didn't want to be marriedto me anymore,um,I just basically ran away. I said, "Youknow what? This is quite devastating.I'm in my mid-40s.I can afford to have an adventure."And so, I ran off to San Francisco.Andthat week, Carl, was seminal for me. Iwas already podcasting. Right. But, atthat point, I did this podcast calledHow Jamaica Conquered the World, and myclaim to fame is in its first episode,it was the iTunes podcast of of theweek.>> Bad gun.>> And that was all the stories that myfather told me about Jamaican culture.I learned two things that my dad didn't

38:20 tell me doing that. One, that hip hopcame out of Jamaican immigrants in inthe Bronx, cool DJ Herc, and it's it'stoast is sound system toasting, but thenput over funk records. And I went, "Ohmy gosh, I did not know that." So,without Jamaican immigration to NewYork, there's no hip hop. Right, there'sno hip hop. And then, the other thingthat I learned wasabout reggaeton.And that is the story of Jamaicanimmigrants going to build the PanamaCanalum in the early 1900s, going to Panama.So, you have um lots of blackPanamanians have English surnames,Johnson, etc. etc.And they always had this close link to

39:03 the island of Jamaica. So, they takeJamaican rhythms and then they startspeaking Spanish over it in the umin in the 1980s, which then becomesreggaeton. And then, that then goes toNew York, and the Puerto Ricans then getbehind it.>> And and and is this wonderful color>> Those are the two Everything else wasthe stories that my dad told me.>> So, so it's the reggae that's got a aLatino influence.>> Yes, because of the building of thePanama Canal.>> Fantastic.>> The the workers, not all, but asignificant proportion of the workerswho built the Panama Canal, which Ithink opens in like 1903, something likethat, um are Jamaican, but they didn'tgo back to Jamaica. But, they they kept

39:47 They were speaking English up until likethe 1960sor so. Um they all have Englishsurnames, but and then they do thisreggae español, which is when thisreggae music comes from the island ofJamaica. They've still got cousins andwhatever over there, so they're gettingthis music, but they're but they rapover it in Spanish. They toast and singin Spanish, and that goes to New York.>> What did you do for the 20 years inLondon quickly?>> So, I had um a aweb business called myvillage.com.Started it in 1999, I met this great guycalled Adam Cole.And he invested in fundamentally in me.We did this for about 11 years. It was aYelp before Yelp. It's local information

40:32 on the web. Started off in Notting Hill.I adore Notting Hill.Umand that was the that even that area isjust a history of post-war Britainbecause it is umbefore Brixton, it's the capital ofblack Britain, Notting Hill. Hence theNotting Hill Carnival. It feels like atotal anomaly now because it's such awhite gentrified area. Butwhy it was an exciting place even in the1990s was you could be working classbut you could live next door to amillionaire.It is literally sits on a fault line ofaffluence in London. So you gotKensington to the south, money, but then

41:15 to the north of that, um you got likeKensal Green, which traditionally isworking class. It's kind of changed nowand stuff. But it meant that you couldhave a black community, a Spanishcommunity, a Portuguese communityand they're living next door to Tarquinwhose a parents, you know,you know,and it's an exciting area. And ineffect, that's kind of what happened. Soum Adam invests in my villageumand at one point in like 2007, we had amillion users a month looking at ourwebsite myvillage.com.Umthen I get married and then the marriagedoesn't work. I end up running away toto to San Franciscoand I'm already podcasting and I'vefallen in love with American politics.

42:00 Anduhso I really followed the 2008 electionof Barack Obama. I said America is trulyliving up up to its ideals. If somebodywho looked like that with that namecould become the president. I reallyfollowed that and so I developed thislove of of American history andpolitics.And I went over and on my week runningaway from a marriage breakup, I had Ididn't an interview on NPR.>> What's NPR?>> National Public Radio.>> Right. Over there. So it's theirequivalent to the BBC and there's aprogram called the Thomas JeffersonHour. And of course Thomas Jefferson wasa a great hero of American IndependentWar of Independence and one of the first

42:44 great politicians in America.>> Yeah, exactly. Um he he's the presidentwho is the third president. You gotWashington,you got Adams, then you have Jefferson.And Jefferson umhas the Louisiana Purchase. So NewOrleans and the whole of the Midwest, hepurchased it from Napoleon. He alsowrites the Declaration of Independence.Um he is um a libertarian president. Hebelieves in small government. He comesfrom Virginia. He's a slave owner. Andone of the things about Jefferson isthat his reputation has taken a tumblein the last 30 years because

43:28 um he had chil- children with his withone one of his slaves, Sally Hemings.But Jefferson sees the FrenchRevolution. He's over there when ithappens. He's the American kind of likenot ambassador, but let's call him anambassador for the sake of argument. Hetalks about that. He he believesthat revolution plays an integral partin reinvigorating um society and soAmerican society. He actually thoughtthatum every 20 years we should you shouldrip up the American Constitution andstart again.But he believes uminhe believes in thein the farmer and the small unit areAmerica whereasum there are other

44:11 like John Adams would be a case in pointwho believes in a government bureaucracyand and building a state and he's theopposite.>> So what was it about these men and theirpolitics which was often very differentto your own beliefs that enchanted youso much?>> What I fell in love withis how peculiar America is.If you're British, you're just British.There is no I don't have to know whatthe British constitution is to beBritish and be a good citizen. Whereasin America, people would say you've gotto believe in the constitution. AndAmerica is is so peculiarin that way. If you think about the

44:54 the countries of the world where to knowhow it governs itself makes you a goodcitizen, it's so few and far between.Maybe North Korea.>> Right.>> Okay. Ummaybe Iran. That's a maybe.>> Right.>> If you're German, you're just kind ofGerman. Like there's there can be rulesaround who is really a German.But it's not to do with the governanceof Germany.Or Spain or Zimbabwe. You're just kindof just are. Whereas Americans would sayyou've got to believe in the Americanway and our constitution. And you know,we don't have a constitution in thiscountry, right? We're literally one ofthe last countries that doesn't have aconstitution. We don't have any rules

45:36 per se, precedent.>> Uh and one of the problems with theconstitution as it was drafted, it'sabout men. All men are born equal, butwhat about black men? Well, we're only3/5. Yeah, what about Native Americans?>> Uh they don't exist.>> Oh, they're not going to get the voteuntil the 1920s.>> So it's there's always been thatcomplication, hasn't there?>> Yeah.There's a massive hypocrisy in theAmerican constitution and thedeclaration of of of rights and stuff.Andit was understood at the time, butAfrican-Americanshad no political power. So, they can bejust brushed underneath the carpet. Umbut that tension is always there fromthe drafting of the constitution in

46:22 well, 1787,I think. And then Washington becomespresident in 1789. And it leads touh the Civil War, the compromise, thesticking plaster which is put over umthe representation of the Southernstates, which is we're going to countthe black people, the slaves, butthey're only 3/5. Whenever you see youhave 3/5 of the your voting weight, it'sand then as the the north becomes richerand more industrialized, the south fallsaway and then theI it's just for me it was fascinating inthat this country was an idea.And but what I always say to Americansand Igot on radio programs talking about thisis

47:06 Americans think that the whole worldlooks at their constitution and says,"This is amazing." No, we don't. WhatAmerica gave to the world was that acountry could have a constitution as afounding document. So, when countriesget independence from the British or theFrench in the 1960s, of course they havea constitution.That's what you do. That's what Americaset in set in in in in you know, in inin progress was was that.>> Not what's in the constitution. And anda constitution should be in effectadaptable to the changing circumstancesof time and place.>> Which is one of the reasons why maybemaybe the way that we've done it is themost sensible that you know, you you do

47:51 a little bill here, a little bill there,but actually you're you're swervingthrough history. Um whereas the French,they go, "Here's our constitution." Andthen one every like 40 years, there's amassive revolution.>> it up. They're They're They're on theirfifth republic.Now listen, I could talk to you aboutthis kind of thing all day, but I wantto move on. You've got a relationshipwith Canada as well. And then I want tofind out why you came back to Birminghamand where you are now.>> blowviator, so I'm going to be reallyquick. I go to I'm in America, but I'mdid mention Noa and Ella, my my kids.Their mother's Canadian. So I neveractually got married to her.I met her in the um 1999, funnilyenough. And so we have two children, Noa

48:35 and Ella. Noa was born in 2000, Ellaborn 2003. She goes back to Canada>> Right.>> with the kids, and to- totallydevastating uh for me at the time. Butthe one thing which I'll always sayabout their mother is that she she said,"Look, we're going I'm going to go to goback home to Canada. Uh you can see thekids whenever you want." And she'sutterly true to that. So the first yearthat the kids were in Canada, 2006, Iwent every 6 weeks and saw them. So eventhough my kids were the other side ofthe Atlantic, I was never a stranger tothem. And their And their motherfacilitated that. I've got to give handsup to that. Umso when I went to and I started livingin California,

49:17 part of the reason was I hate the cold,by the way. So I was not going to moveto Canada, but I wasrelatively close to the So that reallyumthat really helped things as well. UmI I loved California. I loved being anEnglishman in California, a blackEnglishman in Cali->> Yeah, how did that go down being a blackEnglishman?>> Well, um quite well.And it meant that if I walked into anyprofessional situation, peopleremembered me, cuz I thought I was anAfrican American till I opened my mouth.>> And then how did they react then whenyou said I'm not African American?>> Well, they'd go one person go a fewpeople actually says oh yeah you're fromNew Zealand cuz I know there's black

49:59 people in New Zealand. I said no I'mnot. All right.It scrambled some people's heads that anEnglish accent came out of a blackperson. Idris Elba's doing his thingover there but people hadn't connectedthe dots that if there's one Idris Elbathere's probably a few kind of blackpeople over there. It's not part of howwetell our story internationally.Um is is the best way to describe it. Sopeople are like huh? And you go yeahyeah like it's like 20% of thepopulation is non-white in in inBritain.Um so you go I'm I'm I'mI'm English and they go where you fromLondon? No. Uh and then you getLiverpool or Manchester. Cuz of the

50:41 music scene. Because of the music sceneand because of football. Umit is thethe cultural power that the Beatles havegot given Liverpool 60 years latercannot be denied becauseyour average American has no idea whatgoes on in Liverpool but they go theBeatles. The Beatles. Young Americans,old Americans, fat Americans, thinAmericans they go Liverpool the Beatles.And andand it really makes youas a Brummie it's like god damn I wishwe had something we could really youknowinternationally we could hook ourselvesto in the way that Liverpool>> But you told me there is one now isn'tthere?

51:22 >> There there is one now Peaky Blinders.Um but but it's it's very new and unlesswe build on that>> Yes.>> it'll be it'll dissipate within fiveyears. Yeah. It'll it'll completelydissipate.Um>> Because now when you say you're fromBirmingham they go straight to it.>> They they goPeaky Blinders. You knownot everyone 50% will gothat Peaky Blinders the gangsters. Allof a sudden we're kind of cool, even ifit wasn't a, you know,um 100 plus years ago. And And thatreally surprised me, the amount ofpeople who were watching that show withsubtitles on, but watching itand associating it to my hometown.

52:07 >> No, you love California, you don't likethe cold.So, you come back to your hometown.>> Dad's not well. Dad's not well. Dad wasdiagnosed as having dementia, umthis must have happened likepost COVID.Dad's memory waswas a concern.And And inAnd in in hindsight, there were manythingswhichpointed to the fact that he wasn't well.Yeah.Number one, my dad has been a bus driverhis whole life.Um never had a ding or prank on the car.I remember coming home and there waslike bumps on the car and stuff. I was

52:50 like, "What?" And I remember driving mydad and he he forgot quite anxious atsome some junctions or whatever. Veryunlike my dad.Umand there was an incident on 2019, Noahstill living in Canada.He had an incident where he got verydistressed and was very upset. And thisis a big deal. I wasn't at home,but I get this call, Noah's very upset,you need to come home. So, I go home,it's a big deal. I don't ever forget, mydad is cradling my son.In many ways, it's it's distressing, butactually quite beautiful.You know, my dad is hugging my son andand he says, "Noah, it's okay. It's

53:34 okay. You know, your dad's here now.Your dad's here now."And Noah was about 18 at the time.The I say this is a big deal.Andtwo months afterwards, I was talking toabout my dad talking about this with mydad. My dad didn't remember her. Hedidn't remember. He says,"No one was crying." I'm like, "Dad, youand mom were there. I came in, we werein the room."I I didn't understand he couldn'tremember that.Cuz it was sucha gut-wrenching evening.And he says, "No, I don't remember. Idon't remember."Anyway, soin hindsight, you know, the dementiahad started.

54:19 2018, 2019.Umthreeyears ago he said, "No, there'ssomething really up now." And you Andwe're all We all kind of know what itis, but we're hoping against hope.Cuz there are two or three otherconditions which canum mess around with an elderly person'shead, like urinary tract infectionsfamously can make people get quiteconfused. Anyway, umyeah, we took him to the doctors.And I'm still living in California, sobut I'll go with them to the doctors.And he basically passes the dementiatest.But I said to the doctor, "I wentthere."I said,"And I said, 'No.'"And

55:05 his doctor who'd seen him for 20 yearssays,"Mr. Brown," meaning my dad,um"I think we need to take you for furthertests." He says, "I've known you for 20years.The fact that you hesitated, even thoughyou got some of these answers correct,you hesitated on them. That's not theman, Ari, yeah, who came intothis surgery 20 years ago."And he says, "And that's the reason whyyou should haveWe ask that family members come in whenthese tests are becauseyou can pass the test, but the familymembers are with you day in day out.They know who you are, and this isn't Ithink I know.So, yeah, thenand Dad was diagnosed with vasculardementia, and

55:49 you know,there's umwhen he got the diagnosis, the officialdiagnosis,I got this call fromthe clinic.Hello, is that Roy Phil Brown, son ofGlenn Brown? Yes, uh we've got yourfather's results. So, yes, he has uhI'm in town.I think I'm on High Street.I burst out crying.We all knew this was coming.>> Yeah.>> But you're just hoping against hope.>> It's the full stop, isn't it?>> Yeah.And thenI walked to the Medicine

56:32 bakery.I walked in.I burst out crying again.And this wonderful manworking there, he came over. He says,"Can I take your order?"And I'm crying, and he says, "I'll justleave you a moment.">> Aw.>> And then he comes back,and he takes my order.And he was soempathetic.He says, "Oh, would you like some water?Would you like a little tea? This is onthe house." I says, "My dad's not well."AndI

57:14 I sentII was sent a um message to the MedicineBarafterwards thankinghim.I think his name was Luke.And I came in 3 months later and he andhe remembered me.And my dad was always this really strongmanwho looked after everybody and Icouldn't believe I had to look after mydad. So I came back to Englandto try and help my mom and dad. Andthat's part of the reason why I namedthe bar that I did because dad did

57:58 everything for me.It's the hardest loss.Uh I lost my mom11 years ago, my dad 15 years ago andyou've got to make the most of everyday. Yeah, and it's so easy to say that.But you've been a really good son andthat you you came homeand you had to earn some money now,don't you? I think I'm I'm kind ofhopeless. Like I don't have a trade.Like I can point a camera at something.I can put a microphone underneath>> someone.>> I can't really write though.UmsoI was still doing the podcasting andthat's part of the reason why I Ipodcast, but

58:42 umin the last few years of podcasting Iactually made some more all right moneycuz I realized thatyou got to be a a hired hand.You know,don't be apodcast host per se, but be the be theproducer and then take those skillselsewhere. So I did some work for awonderful organization called Oset inAmerica.And then UnHerd, I don't agree withtheir politics at all. You are a aright-leaning umonline platformdown in umuh St. James's and stuff. Like TheSpectator.>> They they they they found me at TheSpectator.

59:24 >> Anyway,umthe thing is with that is you get themoney and you're great and stuff, but umit was a little bit too volatile, but myson had come back.>> Right.>> If Noah hadn't of come back, um I wouldstill would have continued to do that.But I was kind of looking after him.>> Yeah.>> Yeah, he's 22,but he just moved back to England. He'sstill finding his feet. So, I am lookingafter We're living togetherin this flat.And I said, "Wouldn't it be really nicenice if we had a physical business,something we could do together?"I didn't ask him.Um butI used to go to

1:00:08 this place called The Pig and Tail inthe jewelry quarter.And I remember the first time I walkedin there 2017. I'm living in California.My Californian girlfriend at the time Iwalked in, I went, "Wow, look at thisplace.">> Yeah.>> I go on FaceTime cuz she's over there inCalifornia and I'm showing her theplace. I said, "Oh, it's reallybeautiful." I went, "I I can't believethis is in Birmingham." And also, it'son a little square, which is veryun-Brummie. We don't have squares inBirmingham. We don't. And I'm like,"Wow, I love the jewelry quarter. It'sThis is a hidden gem.Blah blah blah."UmI'm thinking it's about April2024. I've got my son living with me.

1:00:53 I'm utterly broke.I sign on.>> Yeah.>> I have not signed on in like 30 years.Only because I have this I'm like, "Ineed to make sure there's money comingin."I don't get a pennyfrom from from the UK government,um but whatever.The next Literally the next day and I'mlike, "What am I going to do here?"I go on online and Dalton's Weekly isthe business. Uh it it used to be innewspaper where you could buybusinesses. See business for sale.Second listing was the Pig and Tail. Iwent, "What? What? I don't have themoney to buy it."But, hook or by crook, leveraging thisagainst that and this and that, um I

1:01:38 find myself in front of the owner, Mark,and I'm going to buy this bar.And I ended up if you'd have reallyasked me um so 2 days before I boughtit, is this going to happen? I'm goingto go, no.But, it did.The money miraculously appeared fromsomewhere, and I bought this bar. AndI'm incredibleWe have a real mission.>> Yes. Come on, what's the mission?>> We're a family-run bar.We'reblack, Brummie owned. It's all aboutBirmingham. You go into the hallway,there's historic pictures of Birmingham.Bulls of Heath in the late 1960s.

1:02:22 Um this American student who came overwho took these pictures of the changingface of Birmingham. Uh there's a the I'ma big Birmingham City fan.>> Yeah, I know. We have to say this here.Me and you have become good pals afterover the last couple of 3 years. And theonly thing that we really fall out overis football. So, we're not going to gothere today. You're a Blues fan, I'mVilla. Let's leave it at that. So, comeon. You You mission. Carry on with themission.>> So, all right. So, it's aboutBirmingham. It's about uhbeing black, but but being inclusive. Wehave um and we're family-run. It's a bigpart of our brand. We're a family-runbar. So, mom and dad come uh once aweek, and they'll clean up for around

1:03:07 the back. UmCustomers love it when dad's there, andand he talks about reggae, and you know,he doesn't remember the customers. But,he always says, "Oh, have I met youbefore?" So, like knows how to, youknow, to to style it out as the kidswould say, you know, "Have we metbefore?" And they go, "Yeah."And Dad's super charming. Mom is abusybody and is is in my face. "Whydon't you do this? Why don't you dothat?" Whatever, blah, blah, blah. Umthe kids are increasingly doing more andmore.>> Right.>> Um Ella is so good at umorganizing and putting systems in placecuz I'm terrible. Noah is a little bitmore free-form jazz, but he's reallygood with with events and he's a great

1:03:50 bar person.And he's really used it as a platform toget to know Birmingham cuz, you know,the kids still have theseCanadian accents. Everyone thinksthey're American, you know. Have food.You do with food. And it's reallyimportant that we do we have Esme'sdoing Caribbean small plates now.Umbut again, we weit'swe are black-owned, but we don't justcater for black people. That's soimportant for me. We've got We've got toshow our culture to other Brummies whodo don't happen to look like us.And we're inclusive. So, the vastmajority of our customers are actuallywhite.>> Yes.>> Um it changes on a Sunday. We become a

1:04:32 bit of a rice and peas and that.>> I love Sunday afternoons at your drum?>> Um because you like good food and youlike a bit of reggae.>> Proper reggae.>> Proper>> 90s>> You like a You like a little bit ofToots.>> Yeah. A little bit of John Holt, KenBoothe.>> Maybe that's a reallyuh perfect way for us to end this, youknow,winding down. Um becauseI grew upum with Sundays being the the time whenMom, Dad,and I were sat together and you heardthose stories about Jamaica. And thereThere a guy called Barry Curtis. He wasan old

1:05:13 in the 1970she wason BBC Radio Birmingham before it becameWN between I think two and four was likethe the two hours of reggae and that'swhen we sat down and had our Sundaydinner and it was a ritual. Barry Curtisat that point there were no prominentblack Brummies.>> No.>> On any level of media but he he did thatthat point and then we sat down and atetogether, had our rice and peas andstewed chicken etc.And that's what I replicate on a Sunday.So it's always it's we call it a reggaeroast. Old reggae, none of thisdancehall from the 80s. No, no, no. No,no, no. No, no, no. It's it's 60s ska,

1:05:58 70s nice melodic reggae, rice and peasand it goes down so well.>> And I've got to say I've been there afew times.It's a historic building that you'vekept alive.The pub itself dates back to the 1850sand some day a square which is namedafter Catherine Dyer a big influence onme who grew up nearby in poverty, wroteabout her story and for me what you'redoing with that pub is bringing us alltogether, our past and our present andwith God's grace our future is onepeople.>> Listen.I I I couldn't have put it perfectlymyself.There is a real mission behinduh the bar which is to celebrate

1:06:43 different communitiesbut also to celebrate a wider identitywhich is that we're all Brummies.>> And your mom and dad, all the Windrushgeneration, I want to say a public thankyouto them for what they did for our cityand our country both.Two world wars and helped to rebuild us.And I want to say to you Roy Field, mayI wish you all God's blessings and allthe successin making Temper Round a beacon of unityfor us.>> Uh, thank you.