Kiran Sahota

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0:00 They said they're screaming they'regoing to burn our house down. So, mygranddad and his family, like mygreat-grandfather and all the men in thevillage, they just said, "Women, justcome in the house." And they said, "Ifwe find you, we're going to kill usall." And they took that sacrifice. Amemorial site in New Delhi, and it wasall the men and women who fought in theWorld Wars. And they have a fire going24 hours so that they're stillremembered. Her father was Muslim, hermother was American. She was the Britishspy. It's the biggest mass migration inhistory.>> Hello there.I'm Carl Chinn, and welcome to OurLives, Our Stories, where we delvedeeply into the lives and story of

0:42 people who've had an effect, who aredoing something positive. And today, I'mreally pleased to welcome Dr. KiranSahota, whose dedication to revealingthe bravery, the determinationof South Asian men and women in theWorld Wars is really inspiring. Kiran,thanks for joining me today.>> Thank you for having me, Carl.>> Before we talk about your passion forrevealing the stories of South Asian menand women of all backgrounds andreligions,tell us a bit about your own background.>> So, it's quite boring. Um, and it'squite normal.>> I'm sure it's not.>> Um, so yeah, I grew up in Birmingham,Handsworth.

1:24 Um, that's where I went to school,that's where I grew up, my family livedthere.Um, and it was normal. We just went toschool and came back and>> Talk to me then about your mom and dadand your grandparents and the familygoing back.>> So, yeah, so when my my granddad cameover in the 1960s, in the mid-1960s,because of the work voucher. At thattime, Britain wanted more people fromCommonwealth, although they came out ofthe Commonwealth, um, to come andrebuild Britain and work in thefoundries. So, my granddad came over onthe work voucher. Um and then a yearlater, well, less than a year, my my nancame over um and settled I

2:08 it was in London, Walthamstow, theyfirst settled.>> Um and then they heard about my thefoundries in Birmingham. So, my nansaid, "My brother's already there." Andthen she told my granddad, "Let's followhim Birmingham and let's buy our ownhouse cuz they didn't have their ownhouse in London. And then they settledin Handsworth where all the foundrieswere. And then my granddad went on towork as a foundry in the foundries. Andthen my nan worked um as a cleaner inthe foundries.>> Hard work.>> Really hard work and long hours, aswell.>> Yeah.>> And I was really fortunate becauseas my mom had us quite young, me and mybrother, we got to live with mygrandparents. So, these stories of likethe work hours, you know, the work thatthey did, as well. Um long hours. And itwas just it was the first job that came

2:52 along. So, we settled in Birmingham.>> So, you're in Handsworth, which is aresidential district, but next toSmethwick, which had lots of foundries.>> Yes, Smethwick and then joins up to LadyWood. So, Anne Road, I think, you know,um Downing Street, all that area had thefactories. My mom, before when she leftschool, she was a seamstress. So,sewing coats and jeans and um everythingwas handmade at that time. My mom, as aswhen she finished she went on to becomethe seamstress, but the foundries werethe foundation.>> Now, this is really important whatyou're saying, and I'm going to comeback to you in a moment. But,whereabouts in India were your

3:36 grandparents from? Were they from aroundJalandhar in the Punjab?>> Yes, so they're from the Punjab. Mydad's side is from Ludhiana, not too farfrom Jalandhar. And then my mom's sideis near Jalandhar. And so, that's wherethey came from. And so, it's a bitdifferent when we look at historybecause when 1947 when the partitionhappened, they were in the villages, butit still affected the villages. Theyweren't on the main crossing area, butit trickled down into the villages. So,it's something like what happened in thecity center. It will still trickle intoSo, what's the green or handsSo, people were still affected. So,>> Now, this was the partition of Indiabetween Pakistan, which then includedwhat is now Bangladesh, and then India.And there wasa lot of violence, a lot of killings on

4:19 both sides.>> Yeah. So, in So, just to go back, Indiaalways wanted its independence. And sodid at that time Pakistan, what is nownewly Pakistan.They wanted an independence because theywere tired of the rule.>> The British rule.>> Yeah, the British rule. And they thoughtit would make fairer conditions.And so, when when the conversationhappened after 1945,um there was the British were saying,"We'll give you the independence."Unfortunately, it didn't work out withthe way that the people in India thoughtit was. Even the government in Indianever thought this would happen likethis. Just a line drawn down the middleand say, "Here's This is the newlyformed India and this is the newlyformed Pakistan. And now we're out of itand you sort it out between yourselves."

5:02 >> was the big problem, was it was sorushed the the movements out of theBritish.>> Yeah, and the displacement, it's thebiggest mass migration in history.>> Really?>> It is. If we I mean, we're seeing howthe Just to give some context for those,you know, can't imagine what it was likemass migration how to move. You know,when Ukraine was under threat and thenyou I mean, we've got TV now. So, youknow, when they picked up their bags andthey were saying, "We don't know whereto go. What countries are going to allowus in?" It was a bit like that, but on aon a bigger scale.>> So, we need to explain Punjab is a hugehuge area. I mean, it's massive. And itwas split in two by the partition. Partis in Pakistan, part is in India. Butactually, both parts of Punjab, there

5:46 were Hindu, Sikh, and Muslims livingtogether.>> So, the entire part of Indiaum was told, "You have to move, and thisis where you're going to go, and this iswhere you're not." So, Muslims were toldto go um to Pakistan side, and Indiansand Hindus used to remain in what isIndia today. And so, that affected, as Isay, Bangladesh, and then that came So,people moved to south because of the warperiod, what happened. They wererecruiting late in 1943, they startedrecruiting from southern India, what wecall it now, like um Sri Lanka,Bangladesh. But before that, it was allone.And so, Hindus and Sikhs stayed on oneside, Muslims were on one side, and ifyou were if you were if a Muslim was on

6:28 a Indian side, they would get killed, orif an Indian was on a Pakistani side,they would get killed.>> had to move.>> Yeah, they had to, but they didn't knowwhere, because where if you'd calledhome 50 years, the whole of India, andnow people are saying you have to crossthe border.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> I feel like it's a bit like the BerlinWall.>> Yes.>> They just put the wall in, and familieswere on both sides. Will we see themagain? And nobody knew that the BerlinWall was going to come down.>> No.>> So, when it came down, and we saw thoseimages, I'm showing my age now, but Iremember on the news people crying andhugging and had photographs. It was abit like that.>> Did your grandparents talk to you aboutpartition and what happened?>> Yes and no. My granddad would talk aboutwhy they left in while he was still a um

7:14 a child. Um but he would talk about whathis father told him, and you know, Indiawasn't always this settled, there wasviolence. But growing up, because it'snot taught in schools, or it wasn't onTV, we didn't have documentariesum on those certain period, we wouldthink that he was making it up.>> Yeah.>> Because that's where would you behiding? Because it wasn't the India thatwe knew, cuz we'd go backwith them, and so, we found Indiapeaceful. So,I'd say to my mom, I you keep mis-squeezed going back home, that's arespect for our elders.As if I will keep speaking, they had tohide. And she was like, when you'reolder, we'll tell you, but not now. Andthen it was when I started reading about

7:59 Indian history when I came into thissector. Um when David Cameron announcedCommonwealth stories should be known.That's when I realized,oh my god, all the stories that we grewup with.It It's It's like a jigsaw piece. Nowtell me more, but he had got dementia bythat time. And then my nan had passed inum 2009 with cancer.>> And it was too late.>> It's too late. And we never spoke aboutit. So, my granddad would speak about itbecause our area was affected by it. Umbecause they would hide the women andthe girls cuz we had Mus- they hadMuslim um next-door neighbors.>> And they helped them.>> And they said they're screaming, they'regoing to burn our house down. And so, mygranddad and his family, like all mygreat-grandfather and all the men in the

8:42 village, they just said, "Women, justcome in the house. Just come."Um and they said if we find they're allgoing to kill us all. And they took thatsacrifice. They said, "Don't worry.Um just come." And so, my granddad'svillage became like a sacred village forpeople to hide. And women knew. And itdidn't matter what background you are.They were just saying, "Whateverreligion you are, just come." And that'swhy when my granddad was talking aboutkeeping people safe, and he had thattill the end. He was like, "To makepeople feel safe." I now get it. So, wespoke about it. I just didn't know. Andthis is why I push formore to be said and told.Because womenwomen were tortured. And that's why

9:25 women's stories don't come out as moreas say men's stories that we know.>> That's verypowerful.>> Mhm.>> Did your granddad and grandmother, dothey speak English or was it mainlyPunjabi?>> So, it's mainly Punjabi and then theypicked up English as they went toworking in the factories and then as acleaner cuz she worked ina factory owned by white owners. So,they would say, you know, this needsclearing or there would be anothertranslator to tell the women cuz thereused to be a group of women to clean thefactory floors and everything like that.So, and then they spoke it but it wasbroken but they could understand.And we they lived like that till theend. They understood other cultures and

10:08 stood Yeah. Like when the milkman at theI'm showing my age.Do you remember when the milkman used tocome? And he used to say, "How manybottles skimmed milk or whole fat?" Or,you know, at Christmas you order alittle bit more. So, they got around.They got by. Um anything like to do withsolicitors, like when they wanted tomake a will or anything like that, thenmy mom would come in as a translator.Um and we would They couldn't read orwrite as well, Punjabi or English. So,that's why when I talk about myneed and my love for making sure thateverybody has accessto education, yeah, it actually camefrom them because they couldn't read.But I didn't know that till later. Ididn't know when my granny used to send

10:51 me thelike ifmy mom was at work, "Here's the letter.Kiran, you read it." And I used to thinkit's just to make sure that we do ourreading.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> You know, I'm doing this but you know,like make sure our reading was on pointcuz the one thing she did say is I wantyou to get a good education. And then itwas later on when I went to secondary,she was asking my mom to read it. And Iwas I said, "Mom, why is Why is Naniasking us to read when she can read?"Cuz she teaches us how to read. She'dtake us to the library, HandsworthLibrary at that time. And then Mom waslike, "She can't read."I was like, "How?" And then but you're achild. So, you I every adult cuz my momcan read, my dad can read, everyone my

11:33 aunts and all could. So, that's when Isaw oh, people are illiterate I didn'tknow the word then, but they'reilliterate andthat then became a big thing in me thatinstilled like to read. And then my nanused to like read the newspapers or seethe pictures and she knew what was goingon. She could understand the news, butcouldn't repeat it in English.>> And I want to come back to your granddadworking in the foundries, your grandgoing out cleaning, and then your mom aseamstress because one of the thingsthat happened was the the Sikh men wouldthen on a Saturday and Sunday go outwith suitcases knocking on doors sellingclothes.>> So, they were the called the businessmen.

12:13 >> Right.>> And we don't fall in that category, pal.I wish. Um so, my mom and dad bothworked in textiles when they gotmarried. My dad used to be a farmer inIndia.Um which in the Punjab at that time mostpeople were farmers. Then when he cameover and got married to my momin the late um in the early '80s, um heworked in thefactories as well, textile clothing. Andthey would sew like piecework. How manypieces you made sure. They were My daddone things for the football industry orthe big clubs used the little foundryfactories around here.And then they would do that and thenthey would bag it up and then the personwith a briefcase would come collect it.And so, that's where we learned to sew

12:57 on the big industrial singer machines.It's not We're not We weren't in all Weweren't these smaller ones. Let's have alesson here. Um and then we used to helpmy mom because we had to cut the labels.So, after school we was only little thenand then more cousins and every bit Itwas a whole family event. And that's howyou earned your money. So, my mom usedto make sure 50 pieces, get 50 or shewould do 60 cuz then you'd get a priceon that. And then you'd collect didAnd then we'd think, oh my god, so richbecause now we made all the pieces." Andthen 2 days later more pieces come. Andyou have seasons in this work as well.My dad started in textiles as well.>> We had no textile industry but we had a

13:40 few Jewish people in the 1860s, '70s,and '80s, but it was very small scale,but we didn't really have a propertextile industry till the Sikhs andHindus came to Birmingham.>> I think it's because also the suitsneeded to be done.Yeah, I mean traditionally Indianclothing, um tailors. Like my mom knowshow to make suits and sew suits. Shedidn't do that for a living. She'd do itfor neighbors like>> Yes.>> what needs fixing cuz we didn't havefast fashionas much as we have now. You can't justpick it up. There you had to have umunsewn material like open material, thensew it. So, we became tailors in asense.>> Yes, through necessity.>> Yes. I can't believe you're going downmemory lane. Um yeah, we learned how to

14:25 sew, how to um make clothes, how to keepmoney, and you couldn't just buy whatyou needed to buy. Like remember C&Aused to be out.>> Yes.>> We used to dream coming home and>> Street, C&A.>> C&A. We You know, we dreamed, "Can wehave that coat?" And then my mom workedumas a seamstress as she moved They usedto move factories on Anne Road and downthere. They used to say, um "We've gotduffel coats." And then at Christmassometimes they would giftthe a duffel coat for one person or youcould buy it like half price. And thenoh my god, my brother wore it, then Iwore it, then my cousin wore it, cousinswore it.Um that's how we passed it down. And we

15:08 really That's why I think the love oflikefixingclothingbut also the art behind it. So, my dadwould just do the patterns, cut it. Usedto work like 12, 13 hours shift.>> Hard work.>> hours>> Now, back to your granny and granddadfor a short time if we may. Did youspeak Punjabi, grown-up? Could youconverse with them?>> Yeah, sowe always would know English becauseit's taught in schools, it's on thattime it was on television. We only hadchannels 1, 2, 4, 9, 7, 5 came out. Umso, we always could speak English, butat home we spoke Punjabi because it wasjust easier on the mother's tongue. And

15:51 then also we'd go off to India. Not asmuch as some families did, but onceevery 3 years we'd go and then mygrandparents would take us or my parentswould take us. And in India at that timenot everyone knew English because wewere still in the villages. And so,learning your own mother tongue wasimportant to me because if they neededto communicate with methen how would they do that? So, we justspeak Punjabi. Then, you know, my auntsand uncles they would speak English.There is a mixture in our household. Itwasn't like you have to speak Punjabibecause my nanmy nan and granddad knew English words.Like they loved the snooker. So, youknow, Stephen Hendry, Jimmyall them. We grew up on all that. Um and

16:36 he would say like the pot in this balland they'd do that and they'd do thenumbers, how much they're doing. And mynan would speak, but most of all wespoke Punjabi. And because everyone inthose areas now it's more mixed areas.Handsworth was heavily populated withSikh families, working class families,and we'd all speak Punjabi.Um and the kids would speak like if I weall went to school we'd speak English.Um we'd watch Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.I'd say, "Oh, did you see what was goingon there?" And things like that. And youknow, television connected us. And thenwhen we're speaking to the elders we'dalways speak Punjabi.And>> What about going to India? What wereyour first impressions? How old wereyou?

17:18 >> Well, my mother took me when I was quiteyoung, so I can't remember the earlydays, but I remember being really maybeabout four or five.Um and it was just soI say different. So, we're used toelectricity, running water, and theroads being clear cuz my dad quicklypassed his driving test. He was thefirst in our family to drive to take mymom everywhere when she was pregnantwith my sister, going back and forthwith the hospitals. But going to Indiawas a culture shock from the first timeI remember. Just that everythingyou could just take an apple off thetree and eat it. We're not used to that.Whereas my mom was used to it cuz shewas They knew what food was, but wewe didn't live like that. We'd go to

18:03 supermarket or shop and then wash it.And but seeing the people, seeing theculture, and also knowing that my ownfamily on both sides, that my nan had asister, my brother Sorry, my granddadhad his brother. Um knowing that theyhad family and my dad it was reallyinteresting because we'd all connect.And they want to know how we live. I wasintrigued how they live. There's a lotof beeping. So, what you see about thecar horns beeping, cows in the middle ofthe street. Yeah, the buses You don'tknow if you're coming or going. I loveall that, but that's what makes IndiaIndia. So, it was a bit of anot a culture shock,but it was a bit of a shock cuz I waslike, "Mom, they're not even driving in

18:46 their lanes. It's just this is just howthey're used to.">> Was your dad from the same village asyour grandparents?>> No. So, inuh in India, you can't get married inthe same village.So, if I met someone down the road inHandsworth,in India, you can't get married to theguy down the street because you you'reeither connected or you call each othercousins or his mom is seen as your aunt.So, it's seen as that you're marryingyour family. So, it'll be differentvillages. So, he's my my dad's villageis not too far. It's about a 20-minutedrive from my mom's. And so, that's howthey connected. Somebody said, you know,we've got a nice young lady, and you'rea nice young man, hardworking, cuzthat's what you looked for inI think in a relationship, in a partner.

19:30 Are they hardworking?Um and are they family people? Andthat's how relationships were created.>> Was that difficult for your mom becauseshe was born here, wasn't she?>> My mom was born too when she was bornShe's born in India, came over too.>> So, she's grown up here.>> But here, I would say that she's grownup here. She's grown up with theculture. I don't think it was a cultureshock for my mom because with in thosedays, we were still very connected toour heritage, our culture, everything ofthat deep thinking. And then, he was afamily man, like he was you know,reliable.Um that's what you want in a partner.So, she wasn't afraid of that. I thinkit was just Um my mom got married at 19.

20:15 And they didn't want me to marry at 19cuz as you grow up, you say, well, 19was too young. But that was the rightage at that time. And then, so my momwas likewhen she got married at 19, and sheloved you know, she still loves beingmarried. She loved being a homemaker.And then, she went out to work andeverything like that. But for eachgeneration, they wanted somethingdifferent. Like my nan got married at15. Cuz that's how it was. Um and that'sjust not in our culture. That's moreEuropean. Uh and it was in Britishculture>> was 18 when she got married.>> Yeah. Um and so, but in us, it was justlike you want to make sure you got theright person with you. Has he got theright background? And is he a familyperson? Is the family okay? And then,you get married. And so, it was like

20:57 matchmaking. And then, yeah, it wasn't aculture shock for my mom because the butmy both my parents, when everyone in myfamily actually were hard workers, andthat's where I get my work ethic. Youshow up, you don't complain. Cuz in thefoundries, you know, the British peoplethe manager, he would say, you know, youP words, it's lunch now. That But that'sthe language. And my grandad wasn'toffended with that. He just says that weknew because we could have There waslike 20 of them couldn't read or writein a group cuz maybe you had shift work.20 would come in at a certain time. Theywould go to sleep and then 20 another.So they were in like groups of 20. Andhe'd say, "Oh, I knew it was my timebecause they said P, you know, get offand or they show a cup of tea like break

21:42 time." And then they knew and then he'dwrite like 2:00 or show them on thewatch this time you need to be back. Andthat's how they knew what time theirshift to work.>> Did your grandad resent that kind ofracist attitudes?>> I can only speak about like cuz youasked the question to me how my grandadfelt. I didn't feel he felt resentment.He knew the color difference wasdifferent. He knew he wasn't in Indiaand he had to quickly adapt to the wayAnd so did my nan. She had to reallyadapt to the way of living here.Um theyused to open fires. There weren't openfires here. But in the word, he justaccepted it how it was because they paidhim on time.They would say to him, you know, if youcome like half an hour early, you have a

22:26 cup of tea then start work cuz your timeis not now cuz sometimes there weremistakes or miscommunications about whattime they were all supposed to come in.But he didn't understand. So when Istarted working,he was like, "Do they call you? Do theyDo you know how do you know what time tocome home? Did they say that?" I said,"They can't say that anymore."And he goes, "Oh, they can't. So how doyou know what time?" But I could readand write. I said, "No, you have acontract now." So it was a different wayof working cuz he was thought everyoneworked the same way as how he had comethrough if that makes sense.>> Does make sense.>> And so the language he was used to hewas quite dark skinned. Where my nan wasquite light skinned, so people would

23:07 think that she's a British womanuntil they saw the headscarf.Umand then they were like oh until theyspeak to her as well cuz she was veryfair skinned, light eyes, and you know,beautiful features. And then my granddadpeople thought that he was from theJamaican community cuz he was reallydark. Um and then when the Caribbeancommunity came, my granddad was likewhen you speak with an accent, um and hewas an Indian accent, they were like ohthey still connected but people wouldthink that he belonged to the community.>> Your granddad got on with things.Hecame to work and work he did. Your grandthe same.As you became older, did you becomeangry at the way they were talked to and

23:51 talked about?>> No. I think we just accepted that washow it is because it willBritish person or white person went toIndiayou know, like saying the mid-90s orearly 90s, we knew that where majorityis, you're the other.And so, if you went to the villages notlike the big cities like Delhi, Mumbai,but if you went to the villages that wegrew up in, people would stare at youand ask you what's this and what's that.They might not use the same language, soI wasn't resentful. Like it's life, it'spart of the history and wewe know better terminology now. Well, Ihope we know better terminology. But,you know, at that time you're coming

24:34 into a land which is, you know, workers,British this and so, he accepted it. Hewasn't ever resentful. He just said atleast we knewwhat to do and they always put the paypackets as well cuzum the manager knew that they couldn'tread or write, so he'd always make surethat they got the pay packets.Um and so, in ways, yes, for me as ahistorian looking back, oh my god, whydid they speak like that? Um But thatwas part ofHindsight is a wonderful thing. That waspart of life then.>> You're right.>> But they also made sure that my granddadwas okay. Umand that he always had his money. And soin those it waslooking out for them the best way that

25:17 we could if that makes sense.>> I do understand that.>> that was what they used. If you go tocertain parts of the country, theyhadn't seen you know,a person of color. When I went to studyat Worcester, and that wasn't too longago, it was majority, you know, whiteBritish faces.>> Overwhelmingly.>> And I was the only person in my year ofperson of color. And so I stood out likea sore thumb coming from Birmingham. Soyou just accept things unless someonesaysto me if somebody has said something atuniversity, that's different. But mygranddad, everyone was spoken to likethat. You know, but the butchers, ifthey went to the butchers, the butcherswould say what kind of meat and cuz westill had like Walter Smith, the downthe Soho Road, we all had whitebutchers. And so

25:59 they knew what they wanted and theyfound a way to communicate.And not everyone used the P-word, but Ithink it was just it was their factoriesand foundries.Um and so they run it how they used to.And then times came and we just evolvedin say the language.>> How important was Sikhismto your family and you growing up?>> It is really important. I mean, we'renot devout Sikhs. So, you know, we cutour hair, we eat meat, and when you'retrue Sikh, you you know, devote yourselfto God and you go with, you know, noteating meat and going to the Gurdwaraevery day. We never done that. I thinkwe were also working. And but God's in

26:43 your heart. And my granddad just said,anyGod always tells you to just be a goodperson and treat each other how you withrespect, how you want to be treated. Sowe always went with that and then familyfunctions, obviously the weddings orget-togethers, someone had a baby. Westill do it now. That was quiteimportant, holding on to our culture,also our religion. And sometimes youcouldn't always do things at the goodweather cuz they were small at thosetimes. And they've gone bigger now, butpeople just have it in their homes. Andthen so we followedmore our culturethan we did our religion in a way ifthat makes sense because not everyonewas going to the house of God or goodweather every day. So, if you're devout,you're supposed to go every day, pray to

27:26 God. Although we pray to God, we do itin our home.Um and so that's where where we were weare still religious. We believe in Godand we go and do as much as we can. Butyou can't always get there. So, we'renot as devout as say others are. Butthat was important cuz that was ouridentity as well.>> Let's talk then about how you became ahistorian.>> Oh, that's so we jump>> Fill the gap in and then we'll jump.>> jump in there. No, that's fine. UmI always loved learning. Um I was alwaysout of like my siblings and my cousins,I always wanted to There must be more.There must be like this knowledge andthings. And so I loved learning and then20

28:10 12, there was conversat- I was anOlympic torch bearer at 2012. Service isto education.>> Brilliant. How did that come about?>> So, that came about So, my nan hadesophagus cancer. And in the same yearshe was diagnosed, she was diagnosed inthe February,November she passed. In between there,we never hadWe heard of cancer, like breast cancer.That was the main one at that time. Umbut we never heard about esophaguscancer.And the year before we'd gone to Indiacuz we went to see our sisters andcelebrate and she just loved life. Andso in '09 when the doctor said that, youknow, get her down to the hospital, Ithink something's wrong. We just thought

28:52 it was like an infection. When they saidit was cancer, we our heads turned. Wedidn't know, where do we go? What do wedo? And I'm talking about a different Wehave more help now because of media,social media, helplines. You watch a TVprogram, they say, "If you've beenaffected by this, call this." In '09,and that's not too long ago,we never had any of this. So, we weretrying to figure out heads, what kind ofcancer? Do we know anybody with thiscancer? Nobody we knew. Um and so I waslike, if this is our community, and shemy nan didn't speak English, we need todo more. So, I started working with thehospitals.And the hospitals, that was a case byitself because they made a ton oferrors, City Hospital.Um just that how they work with carers.It's a better system now. Um but we felt

29:36 like we were trapped, and so I'd workedwith McMillan, and then John TaylorHospice, which changed their name now toBirmingham Hospice.Um better education. And so my nanpassed in '09.And do you have to be famous to be onTV? And what I mean by that iswe felt her loss,and we knew what she'd done for thecommunity cuz she looked aftereveryone's children in the community.But I felt like the world was going by,and then people pass and they're on thetelevision. Do you know the greatservice that they did? AndAnd I I think maybe it's personal cuzit's your own loved one, and you thinkthat they changed everything.Umand then I realized there's no educationout there. And so I just campaigned forbetter education when it comes tocancer. If the patient can't speak

30:18 English,and the carer can't speak English, powerof attorneys, do people know about powerof attorneys? You finance, and thenhealth as well cuz it's two differentpower of attorneys. So, I was on acampaign just to do all that whileworking and looking after my granddadcuz he was disabled.And um it came about I did not know mysister had put an application in or putmy name forward cuz I heard about it onthe TV. Remember this big thing iscoming to Birmingham, Olympic torch, andeveryone getting involved. Andand I never thought it was going to beme until I got a phone call.>> Fantastic.>> And then they said, "Oh, you know, weneed your passport just to make sure youare because someone's nominated you." Ithought it was my brother and I always

31:00 thought I thought it was my brother cuzthey love pulling pranks on me. And Iwas like, "Yeah, that's really funny."Put the phone down.>> Oh, no.>> think it was a Saturday. And then theperson called up again and said, "No,we're official. We're going to send youan email, so stay by your email. This iswho we are." Cuz we didn't have teamsand all the all this now and videocalling. And he popped in. He knew stuffabout me and my nan. And I was like,"Well, he would only know that." Andthen they went, "No, we're serious." So,and then we that came.So, I posted it off. Um and then thesurprise I thought I was running andthen the surprise came. They called me aday before to say, "You know, we saidyou're running.Well, you're not." And you know, I'mIndian. I'm Indian through and through.I told my mom that we're running in the

31:43 Olympic torch. My uniform had come. Ithey had told every relative in Canada,America, India, you know. And then theysaid I'm not running. And I was crying.And they said, "No, no, no. We want youto meet someone. So, get to Cannon HillPark early.And you're going to do a meet andgreet." And so, I took my sister didn'tthink. And it was only Sir CliffRichard.And he had no one to ride. And he was solovely. And they said, "You're going tobe the last torchbearerYou're going to be speaking." We wouldcall him Cliff then. I mean, we've donethe title. And>> You would call him Cliff just like that?>> Yeah. Andyou know, and and no offense to him.I was listening to Kylie Minogue. And Iwas like, "Cliff Richard?" I knew him

32:27 from Summer Holiday.>> Yeah.>> But I didn't know he was such a bigBritish icon. This is how naive I was.And then I told my mom. I said, "Mom,they want me to do something with CliffRichard." She said, "No, no, really?"And then my mom was like, "I better wearmy best earrings.">> Oh, look at that.>> So, that and then my granddad was like,"Summer holiday.">> Aw.>> "Congratulations." And yeah, that's howit all came about. And then we were onthe bus to get it so surreal. He was solovely. AndI'm trying not to cry, but>> I know.>> when he was asking, it was just me andhim on that bus, that special bus, nopolice protection, just the two of ustalking. And I wish I had my camera in

33:10 those days.>> I bet you did.>> And I was just in awe. I was like, "Youknow, you worked with Cilla Black." cuzI love Blind Date, Surprise, Surprise.UmYeah, and he was like he's asking me andI remember crying on the bus tellingthis story that I feel likewith my nan passing and because she diedso suddenly, she hadn't been 70.UmI don't know if my heart will ever heal.>> I know.>> She'll never see me get married orchildren. And no, it's you know, umAnd he said, "Well, you're doing somuch. How do people know how to contactyou?" And I was sponsored by Coca-Colaat that time.And they went on this big long tour of

33:54 you can speak here, you're going to dothis. And And that day I was meetingeveryone. People were treating you likea celebrity, like want your photograph.I said, "Don't You should be withCliff."You want mine? And it was bizarre. And Iremember when he got off the bus cuz Iwas the last one on it. I said, "I'mscared. Don't get off." cuz it was justthe driver. I don't know. I'm not usedtocamera lights. I don't live a normallife.Prison work, teaching, all of a suddenbeing a carer.And now you've got ITV, I had BBC. Theydid all these big headlines. And theysaid, "You're going to be on the frontpage of the news tomorrow."I said, "It can't be. It can't What?"And he I remember just saying, "Stay."And he said, "No, it's your moment. This

34:36 is your moment. And you're going toshine." And he got off. He's used tothat. But it wasso surreal for me.And I was just like,"How can this be? I'm just telling I wasjust a carer."I'm just telling about the cancer, andhe And then he said afterwards, whichwas so lovely, um you know, get yourstuff together, get a business and youknow, stories, and this is your moment.And I remember doing interviews then,the media interviews. You you You'remore used to it than I. I was There'ssomebody telling you what to do, achaperone.And then we had this entourage, someonedoing your hair, and someone telling youwhat to wear and where to go. It was so

35:18 surreal. From Handsworth, we don't dothis. We just turn up, and I could be myauthentic self. And how I am here, youknow, coming to How are you, everyone?What's going on? They just said, "Justbe yourself." And for so long, I didn'tknow how to be myself, because I wascrying days before. And so it came Yeah,it came Everyone was recordingeverything. And um it was just amazing.And that's how I got into>> the history>> the history, because I started lookingat the education bit. And then whenDavid Cameron, maybe it was just analigning of all the stars togethercoming. And I do believe in God.Umyou know, when David Cameron said, "Tellyour stories." And I was already in the

36:01 education part. I was like, "Why don'twe know stuff about ourselves?" So we'vedone this for the cancer, translated,you know, make sure that leaflets weretranslated into Punjabi. Um we'regetting more access. We're teachingnurses how to get into homes as well. Somy nan, even though she was on herdeathbed, she was like, "No, no one'sgoing to see me like this. Go and make acup of tea. Get the biscuits out." Andwe had to get the water turned. Andthose days, you know, you had to get thebest cutlery and the nurse was like,"I'm just here for you." And she waslike, "No, no, no.">> You're guest in my house.>> You have to make the chapati, you'regoing to stay put. And she was like,"No, I've got another six, you know."Like, that was our way of saying thankyou and just our way of living in ourculture.

36:43 Umand so that happened and thenlike I said, David Cameron said, "No,you're history.">> So, what were you working at at thatstage and what what did you then do?>> So, I when David Cameron made the call,I was a carer and I was also workingwith businesses to change when they werein trouble, how to change over. And notsocial media as much, but if they weredoing a merger, how do we do that? Howdo we go into that? And doing theeducation bit that if you're going togive redundancies,can we get women on courses because mostof them were working mothers.How better can weget them into education.>> is a big jump for you to go from being acarer and working to suddenly decidingto>> to become a historian. Yes, of course.

37:25 Yes.>> A leap in the dark.>> Oh, yeah. UmI think when I started looking at what Idon't know, I was frustrated at myself.How do I not know this? Cuz I'd got anEnglish and literature English andAmerican literature degree.So, within an English and Americanliterature degree at from WorcesterUniversity, I knew how to use thearchives. I just didn't know where andhow. And then you make a few calls andthen a friend of mine, Dr. Nicola Gold,and she become a friend at that time.Somebody said, "Oh, you want to knowabout history?" I only knew you at thetime.But yours wasn't South Asian history. Ifollowed you with your career um talkingabout local histories, how important it

38:09 was. And you've covered diversity. Youalways used to cover, you know, food,whether it was food or the things thatwe wore. I used to have a TV programwhen they needed a specialist. And soI knew we had histories. I just neededsomeone who focused in South Asianhistory, and that's whenat the library there was a little talkabout people getting involved in thecommunities, and I was already incommunities cuz I used to liaise with Doyou remember the neighborhood offices?They're shut now, but they used to beour link to everything, and we had alittle callout, and I went to theirtalks, and then Nicola was there.Someone introduced me to Nicola sayingshe actually is a historian, she's adoctor. And she just said, "Here, let me

38:52 help you. I don't know South Asianhistory.">> But she went and she's done great workon the Suffragette women's history.>> Yeah, and she's based at University ofBirmingham.But libraries just have community hubs.They don't have that now. And the restof it I started doing research, and thenDr. David Omissiin Hull University at that time, he'snow left, he picked up a call, and justlike when I called you for the firsttime, he's got no secretary. I don'tknow why I think I think I've been a PAfor too long where I was a PA, and thenyou want to talk to the VP or CEO.Everyday people don't have secretaries.They don't have assistants. You justpick up the phone yourself.>> That's right.>> And I I always get stuttered I alwaysstutter then like, "Oh, what should Isay?" Or "Hello, it's me." But you took

39:35 me seriously, and David took meseriously, and he said, "If you reallywant to get into this field, I can showyou where some of the archives are. Therest is on you, but don't ruin my name."And I remember a friend, he's now left,he worked at the National Army Museum,and he said, "I'll lend you my name toget you in throughbut don't you do anything with my namelike don't ruin it. Don't ruin myreputation.">> I never said that to you.>> No, you never cuz we're from Birmingham.>> Correct. I believed you straight away,didn't I?>> And they did. Yeah, and that opened thefield then, and we already had thecompany doing educational stuff.>> So, this is a really quick move from2012 Olympics.First time that we really got involvedwas 2014-15.>> 2014 cuz Adrian Goldberg introduced us.>> That's right.

40:17 >> Cuz he spoke to me after the Olympictorch and then I was already doingeducational stuff with women andchildren.And I used all my like all my knowledgefrom the prison work and probation andworking as a youth worker like the gangsand all that. Everything that I saidwe're still restricted. So that's why mycompany focused on making educationaccessible.And then coming out of the Olympictorch, it gave me a footing. Becausepeople had seen me with TV chat. Theywere like, yeah, yeah, she's legit now.And I was on ITV Central, so that mademe more legit.We've seen you on the TV. But that gaveme conversations to okay, let's takethis to government. Cuz you're notmaking education accessible and if DavidCameron is saying there's part of money

41:00 and you know me, I'm a doer. Monday Isay I'm going to you know, do somethingby Friday it's already done or we're onthe track of.>> So you you decide you're really going tolook at the history of South Asian menand women. Was it always going to beabout the World Wars or was that yourfirst entry point?>> That was my entry point. Because it wascoming up the conversations what DavidCameron and what I heard on the news.They're putting so much money into thiscampaign of knowing your history, here'smoney. And we only got 10,000 at that Isay only, but that was a lot of money tous. So I I needed a footing.And working with the experts cuz theylived in London and they lived in Hull.They just said here, you find a hook andthen come to us cuz no one does your

41:43 work for you. No, I didn't want to bespoon-fed. So I looked at VictoriaCrosses. If I didn't know this, 99% andI was betting at that time that nine notmoney wise, but betting the communitywould not know this. And then I did mymarket research. You know me, I gothorough. In Handsworth, they didn'tknow what a Victoria Cross was. And wedid market research. My mom helped me,my aunts helped me, my cousins helpedme. The community, the aunties came outand they said, "Khuraira, are youserious about this?" I said, "Find out.Do Do know this and do you know that?">> They didn't know. No. And then I knew Iknew.>> So you started with>> Victoria>> Victoria Crosses. Tell me about some ofthe men that you>> uncovered.>> So we put the Gurkhas in and that was abig thing because

42:25 they also were featured on the RoyalMail stamps at that time.Um Khudadad Khan was the first what wecall now Muslim soldier.>> Shubedar as a corporal?>> Yes, to be awarded the Victoria Cross.Khudadad Khan he earned that was at thebravery.And so we kind of followed these storieson to what we can do like Mir Dast. UmShubedar he met the King at that time toget his Victoria Cross. And what made itfascinating I could link it between theUK and India. So if you weren't goingback to India or Pakistan at that timeand you wanted to find out more, Iworked with all the partners and Icouldn't believe that National Archives

43:08 was saying yes, National Army Museum.You don't get this on your first bigbreak. And then Birmingham Museum andArt Gallery saying yes, we've got aroom. The community room as it wascalled then, the community gallery.Here you go. And so with Mir Dast, hewas at Brighton with the Royal Pavilionrecovering.And I was likeBrighton's not that far. It's a 3-hourdrive. But>> Yes.>> how is it that we don't know? So Iworked with experts there.Picked up all that knowledge and wentmyself to see it. Used that in theexhibition to say there's there's a blueplaque now at that time there wasn't ablue plaque, but you can actually walkon the grounds that he was on.>> What did he do to get the VC?>> So he was while his counterparts wereunder attack

43:52 um he came in with the gun and lookedafter men and saved them. And so thatwas seen as a heroic battle because ofthe things that he had done, he alsoinhaled a lot of gas.>> In the First World War?>> Yes, in the First World War. And thatled him to come to Royal Pavilion.>> To recover?>> To recover because he was coughing andhe had this gas in him and he was no useon the front line. And so what theywould say is that come and recover atRoyal Pavilion. And in Brighton therewere a few more hospitals as well. Andum but there actual evidence, there werepictures. And it's all on my website aswell. So there were actual pictures ofhim, you know, sitting on the groundsum in Royal Pavilion and pictures ofhim, you know, speaking with the king.

44:36 He could read and write as well.Which is amazing cuz the other Indiantroops, the Indian men, would rely onhim.And that's how my mother was I there wasa connection, a reflection on the way Igrew up. People in our community, thosethat couldn't could not read and write,they would come to my mother and say,"You do your mother's letters.Um can you do our letters?" And theywant to send them back to India or if itwas just, you know, like um childbenefit at that time. You had the bookdealing with you had to go to the postoffice. Sometimes they couldn't read theletter. They would ask for you to readit cuz now we get translation. In thosedays>> There wasn't>> especially for your audience, they mightthink that it's current times but

45:19 in those times you didn't havetranslation.>> So there was an empathy straight awayfor you.>> Yeah.>> Where was he from?>> So he would be in now Pakistan.So but that time it was India. And thenwe traced it back to when he passed andthen we looked at the India Gate whichis in um New Delhi. So I knew a lot ofpeople go to Delhi. I mean we've beengoing to Delhi before we go to thePunjab. And my dad would take us aroundthese sites when we were small. And he'dsay, "Look at the names." But we didn'tknow what it was and then it all clickedto us as I was becoming a historian.This kicks into oh my god.>> These are the names of men from India.>> yeah. So it's a memorial site in NewDelhi.>> Amazing.>> And managed by the Commonwealth WarGraves Commission. And it was all the

46:02 men and women who fought in the WorldWars, and they have a fire going 24hours so that they're still remembered.>> That's>> And you can still see it now in inDelhi, so it's still there, but I didWe've got pictures when I was small withthe India Gate, but>> And what was so important with your thatwith your work was you were showing thatMuslim, Hindu, Sikh, men of allreligions were fighting with whiteBritish>> Yes. Yes.>> the trenches, and later on the SecondWorld War, the Indian Army holding backthe Japanese at Kohima.>> Yes.I think I just did a reflectionofwhat I saw in our community. The youknow, Sikhs at that time were doing

46:45 their ownuh exhibition, Muslims were doing theirown exhibition, Hindus were doing theirown exhibition, but it was about theirstories, but growing up and just evenworking and where I go back inHandsworth, we were all Sikhs andthere's Muslims. And so I didn't wantI I didn't want a piece just on Sikhsoldiersor Hindu soldiers. Let's just showpeople the collective story.>> And the unity on that as well.Um because Khudadad Khan was the firstto get the Victoria Cross.>> Tell us about him.>> That was a real major moment forKhudadad Khan. So he joined the army umand then he when he was awarded

47:28 the Victoria Cross, so to be awarded theVictoria Cross, a British soldier orofficer had to see things in action withhis own eyes, and then he would log it,and then it would be up for discussionwho gets a Victoria Cross or not. And sowhen Khudadad Khan had accepted theVictoria Cross prior to that, Indiansoldiers were awarded the Indian Orderof Merit, which is the highestequivalent to a Victoria Cross. Then thelaw changed in 1911to say no, it's open to war. And so thatwas the groundbreaking moment ofKhudadad Khan his story was this man whocame to the battleground, gave his life,rescued others in his um unit, wasawarded the Victoria Cross,

48:12 um but we don't know much of it. Andthen we didn't know much of him at thatpoint. And so that was important for meto start in the story as well. And thenwe had the letters that we ended theexhibition on going around those 11 thatwon the award that were awarded crossand then ended it with letters that Ifound in a collection.>> Oh.>> Well, why are they wearing Indian aswell? Why did they get the VictoriaCross? Why are we not worthy? And so itleft this question what I wanted to withthe audience, who is worthy? And it wasait's also like in the schooling systemnow, those who are seen as great alwaysget the teachers' attention, but I was Iremember being the average.And the teacher would say, "Well, youknow, to read this text and you do

48:55 explain things." And so we wanted toreflect what goes on in the educationsystem now and what was happening backthen as well. And what is fair? Becauseeveryone contributed to that war.>> So this led you to open up yourresearch, make it more democratic?>> I think yeah. I think also you neverwant how I saw it, I want peopleleaving, I did not know this, now I knowit, I'm better educated. But also whatelse happened after that?>> Yes.>> So I curate exhibitions, people are notgoing to believe it, I curateexhibitionshow I want to be taught.And sometimes I have to listen toexperts, I mean I have to I love thisword, compromise.As an Indian woman I've never

49:39 compromised in my life, but I've had tocompromise.Um I want people knowing more and whereto go to more for further informationbecause as educators our job isto give you the skill set and then it'soff to you what you do with it. And so,how I was mentored, we don't havementors anymore in this sector, but howI was mentored is always leave theaudience>> want you to find out more.>> Find out more, and that's what led me>> And it's one of the reasons why me andyou understood each other. Tell us alittle bit about the story of yourgranddad that went into my monthlymagazine.>> Oh, yeah. TheThat I must say, you didn't owe meanything. You didn't know me properly.You didn't We You know, apart fromAdrian introducing us and a bit of

50:23 hi-by, you didn't owe me anything. So,when you When I spoke about thisupcoming exhibition, my first one, and Isaid, "Carl, I'm thinking aboutsomething."I always remember, I'm not going to cry,but you just said, "Yeah, you can do it.You can."Andyou must have listened I always respectthe hierarchy as well.You know, I come from, you know, normaljob. He's a historian with credentials.I know you don't see yourself>> That doubt.>> But,in our culture, we also respect thehierarchy. You knew everything in oureyes of, you know, when it came tohistory. And you actually introduced meto Benja- Benjamin Zephaniah as well.And you introduced me to these people,

51:05 and I remember you asking me a questionwhere you come from, just a bit likewhat we're doing today. Like, "Okay,what is your background?" And we livedon other parts of Birmingham, but youcould resonate with the culture I'mtalking about, um the people that youknow, people wearing suits, and mygranddad was disabled, and he had hestuttered cuz he had a stroke, and thenhe stuttered. Um but you were soyou treated me like a human.And I had not seen that because beforewhen I was trying to do the exhibition,I knocked on every historian's door atthe University of Birmingham and Aston,and nobody was coming forward. They alldid polite emails, or they just left meunread. So, or they said we're going to

51:48 come and speak to you, but because Iwasn't a doctor or anything,they didn't know what I was doing. I hadno reply.And so, meeting you, and you were askingabout my family, and I had this picturethat my mom had taken of mygrandparents, which is now on socialmedia.Umyou were I'd love to do a piece, but Isaid, "But what do you want to do apiece on?" And you said, "I want to do apiece of your family, who you are, whatmade you." And I never really wanted tospeak out about my family, cuz mygranddad was disabled. We'd just foundout he had dementia by the time me andyou were speaking. And so, you asking meto doa magazine but with them, they'd neverseen themselvesin a magazine, let alone a newspaper.

52:33 Um it was scary times, but I loved itbecause I remembershowing my granddad after cuz you sentme the magazine.>> And you even asked me, "Read it over.Are you okay with everything that I'mgoing to write cuz it's going to go inprint?" And you made me feelseen.>> Thank you.>> You're welcome.Cuz no one talks about how hard it wasbeing a carer.>> I know.I know.>> Sorry. And it was hard like>> he had like a stutter, he was in awheelchair, people used to make fun ofhim.>> Come here.>> Oh, sorry.>> I know. I know.I know.

53:16 >> Those days were really tough.>> But you kept him alive.>> Yeah.>> And you you kept him alive since hedied. What was his reaction when he seenhimself in>> loved it. He put his hand over thepaper. My mom loved it. She come made acopy, sent it everywhere. But I feltlike we were being seen cuz you don'thave a toolkit being a carer. I'mworking. We are better. Now you canspeak to your managers.But I remember like even when mygranddad had cancer and I was working ata place and I said, "I need to goBecause we have to fight this together.And he said, "If you leave,>> You lose your job.>> You lose your job. So, don't bothercoming back."And we were always taught if you got ajob, you have to get another job.>> Yeah.>> And I was scared cuz teaching didn'twork out for me. It was not the kids. Itwas all the red tape that people don't

53:59 see. And I was working 7:00 till 7:00.And I remember be having that samefeeling inside. I'm so scared. I'mdisappointing everyone.>> I understand that.>> And my mom was And my mom and my mom anddad saying,"You are working long hours, but if youdon't like it, get another job."But this is what you done your degreefor, cuz I always thought I was going todie as a teacher, like I'd finish itout. So, I always felt like I let peopledown.And thenAnd my job wasn't like my brother had asteady job. My sister, coming out ofuniversity, had a steady job, graphicdesigner. My cousins had a steady job. Iwas the only one, like from teaching,prison work, youth work, gangs, andcrime, violent crime, andis there get a proper job. My familydidn't say that. I felt like that's whatwe

54:40 >> I know what you're telling me. You say,"When I got my doctorate,my cousinsfrom Aston,pipe layers, kids and says, "Hey Carl,when you're going to leave school andget a proper job?">> Yeah, so that's That was part of it. Buthe loved the article. He couldn't readit, so we read it to him. Then he sawthe picture. And you know, him and mynan had never been apart. So, herpassing so suddenly>> So hard.>> I now And now that he's passed, hepassed just before COVID.Um I can't imagine being married tosomeone for that long. And he nevercried in front of us when she passed,even when she had the cancer. I neversaw himnever saw him cry.

55:22 Never saw himanything. Never saw himshed a tear.And I think he done it privately becauseI was such a wreck.Because I was like cuz>> You were devoted, weren't you?>> I loved her. I I her.>> What did you learn from her?>> Work ethic, show up.Show up, don't let people down.Be yourself and II never saw myself the way she saw me.I never saw that.>> But I bet her was so proud of you.>> I loved it. She loved that I got into mydegree. She loved it and I wish she washere to see this.>> And that's whereyou're from a Sikh background, I'm fromthat white working class Englishbackground. My family were the same asyour family.

56:04 We had the same work ethic. My nan wasprecious to me.Very proud our Carl's the first one togo to university.>> And they want to check everything with>> Yes.>> And she always was even for my degree,am I dressed correctly, am I doingthings that I was like, you'll be fine.>> So, you're on this new path now.>> Yes.>> And you followed this path and it hasn'tbeen easy because you've got to getfunding continually, haven't you Kieran?>> It's never easy. I think also being afemale in a minute she>> Yes.>> Lord, it is not easy, you know,bullying, harassment, all that. Butyou've got to block that out. You've gotto block it out. I think it's not thatthe language as well. I think, you know,being in this sector now, that's what

56:47 makes me want to speak up a lot more.But also shine a light in Birminghamwhat's happening.>> Yes.>> And the overlooked stories, if if thosein position are saying they want moreunity, then come to the people thatbring unity.We've got a proven track record of ourwork and our CV can go on for days withthe impact as well that we have, theoutreach, the learning. If I wasn'tmaking a difference, people would notcome to my shows.>> So, tell me, what are you doing now? Andwhere are we going to go?>> Oh, we got more exciting things to come.So, just before Christmas, we announcedthat we got national lottery>> Brilliant.>> funding for a new>> Congratulations.>> Thank you. Forgotten India, the storiesyou didn't know. So, coming out of the

57:30 80th anniversary and our Indian women atwar project. The 80th anniversary lastyear in 2025was the anniversary of the ending of theSecond World War. And we hadthe big event atthe Royal the National Arboretum.>> Yes.>> I know we got to see the King and theQueen.>> Did you?>> In you know, invited to BuckinghamPalace, Clarence House,all the fun stuff. So coming when wedone Indian women at war project, whichlooked at the Indian women'scontribution to Second World War, a lotof people said, you've got are we goingto do something? And I said a lot ofpeople that was the communities, youknow, what are we going to do now? And

58:12 in the anniversarythey they've only just recognized theorganizations that do have money.Oh, there was another VJ Day. We shouldnow plow money in that. But outside ofanniversaries, we can still plow moneyand tell these stories, but it was leftto me. So we've been telling thesestories of men and women and then thenew project Forgotten India 80, which is18-month long project,I'm reading the research and developmentphase at the moment. Um it's going totell all these fantastic stories ofwomen, men, children. We're bringing inother experts on migration,bringing it back to our hometown ofBirmingham.>> Good for you.

58:53 >> Which I'm so excited about. So the youknow, Handsworth Library we've teamedup. As you know, I love you know, givingout books and making education andaccessible, you know, working with ourlocal libraries. We'll be going on anational tour as well up and down thecountry with our partners from acrossthe Armed Forces.>> One of the things that really struck meis where we also have an empathy. Mywork has always focused on those who'vebeen left out of history. You're doingexactly the same and what you didwas bring women into it very veryimportantly. Tell talk to me a littlebit about some of the women that youuncovered, Indian women who who played asignificant role in the Second WorldWar.

59:34 >> There were so many. So, we looked at thewomen in the armed forces. So, theWomen's Auxiliary Corps India, whichis a mouthful, so we call it the WAC(I),and the Women's Royal Indian NavalService, the WRINS, which were theIndian Navy at that time.And we looked at women like Kalyani Sen,the second officer.Um she's a lady dressed in a sari. She'spart of the Indian Navy. Um and herhusband was part of the Navy as well.And she came with Margaret Cooper, whooverlooked the WRINS. And she came toScotland for training. And they went touh Buckingham Palace for garden party.Um so, they she came over and those daysIndian women weren't brought over for

1:00:15 training purposes.As if she'd come, she's well-respectedwith a bindi, with a sari, and navaluniform. Um and here she is amongstBritish white women talking abouttraining to take back to the women inIndia. So, that was such a movement.These are the stories I covered. Withthe WAC(I)s,um we had so many stories of young girlssigning up to become they were the wivesor the daughters of officers, but theywanted to sign up because they had theirown money. For the first time India wasrecognizing women of opening their ownbank accounts outside of husbands andfathers.Um and the WAC(I)s were the first port,modeled on the ATS, the AuxiliaryTerritorial Service, which the lateQueen Elizabeth II was in. So, in

1:00:59 Britain played a huge role inin India maintaining that women wereemployed, women were trained, and womenhad a future post-war.And then we had Noor Inayat Khan, whowill be there>> Oh, now tell us about her.>> Yeah, Noor Inayat Khan, she So, shewould be what the RAF is today. So, shewas a young lady who was a pacifist. Shedidn't likewar, she didn't like violence. Um herfather was Muslim, her mother wasAmerican.Um born in Moscow, and she was theBritish spy. So she was a specialoperative executive, the SOE's.Um Winston Churchill formed in 1942,said we need women to be spies cuz the

1:01:44 men were being captured in Europe.>> They were dropping them behind enemylines in France, weren't they? Belgium.>> Yeah, but men were beingas men couldn't disguise themselves,they needed women uh who knew thelanguage, who knew the area. Noororiginally was um living in Paris. Soshe knew the streets. Um and then theylived in London.Um after coming from Paris to London. Sowhen she was flown into Paris, she knewthe streets. And she was a spy, and sothis was the first time we've seen awoman of color as well.>> Yeah, yeah.>> And there's so much. She came in the umDoctor Who episode, there was a speciala few years ago. So these stories ofwomen, we only hear in say books ormagazines. So we created in 2020,

1:02:30 um we did not know COVID was coming, butin 2020 we got permission from umfunding from National Lottery Heritageagain, anduh permission from Ministry of Defenceto say yes, go ahead with the theproject. And let's talk about thesewomen, how they contributed.>> And a lot of women who were born inIndia at that time, British women, theythen had to leave before part 1947. Soin 1946 when the WAC(I)NS got disbanded,they were told to come back to England,and they said it's foreign to us.We're used to this good weather, we'regood used to this lifestyle. How can welive in Britain? And so stories are likeNoor being a spy for the European sideof the war, not the Far East. It brought

1:03:14 home It tied in these stories, what wetalk about. And we talk more about theEuropean side in schools. And so thatwas our connector with schools anduniversities and communitiesto say, "Did you know that the in thiswhole global war, two sides we've gotstories and we've got women of color?"And so unfortunately, you know,Noor never got to live outside. She waskilled on duty. She was betrayed acourt.Um>> She was tortured as well, wasn't she?>> Yes, absolutely. Just the horrific We'vegot more on our website about thisstory. Just She was a great spy.And then when she was captured, but shenever gave anything up.>> No, she she didn't betray anybody, did

1:03:58 she?>> So when then we look at loyalty and whatunfortunately what was happeningyou know, during COVID, the language andwhat was happening, you know, in thecountry that we live in, you know, thelanguage and people pointing who belongsin this country, who not. Here we areworking on a national project tellingabout alliances and loyalty,secrets, and you know, these women gavetheir lives. And without them, Churchillsaid, you know, "Let's set Europeablaze." And he brought the women in andthe women did the job.>> I want to say not only thank you to you,I want to sayyou have done a wonderful job and youare doing a wonderful job inhighlighting the value, and that's theword I want to use, the value of our

1:04:41 South Asian brothers and sisterswho fought with us.Um it's not us. We're all together. Me,you, our people.>> Yeah.>> You were doingYou're doing God's work.You're bringing us together. You'rerevealing things thatshould be revealed.You're a great credit to your granddadand your grandmaand your mom and dad.And you can tell them thatyour mom and dad, the family from me.If people want to find out more, whatshould they do?>> So, you can go on our websitewww.bimc.comor follow us on Instagram believingmecic

1:05:23 and there'll be more things coming alonglater on in the year about how to getinvolved with the new project ForgottenIndia 18.>> And I think we'll have to have anotherchat then about that project, won't we?>> Yes. And thank you, Carl. Thank you formaking us see be well no, making us beseen actually. That's the right word.And we've been friends for so long.And people come go.I really appreciate it. And let's let'slet you know, bring magic to Birmingham.So, thank you for having me.>> God bless you.>> Thank you.