John White

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0:00 You know, from eight years old, I usedto goto the bull ring on the bus with my dadand help him out on his barrow. When Iwas 13, I I got expelled from school andthen I wentto work with him permanently at 13.Bobby Thompson, who played forBirmingham, Mike Summerbee, GeorgieBest, John and myself, we had a fracasin a a bar. To beanything in life or anything inbusiness, you need a partner that's withyou.Hello there. This is Carl Chinn andwelcome once again to Our Lives, OurStories. And what a story we've got for

0:43 you today. I'm going to be chatting witha chap called John White, who knows somuch about the old bull ring and thebarrow boys, but who went from adversityto become a really successfulbusinessman. John, thank you for joiningme today. It's a pleasure, Carl. I betthis place here has brought back somememories for people that don't know.We're in Nortons in Meriden Street,which is just off Digbeth,opposite the bull ring. So, John, hasMeriden Street, this location, stirredsomememories for you today? It does Carl,because it was veryround the corner Coventry Streetwas where many of the old barrow boyslived in the two up, two down.Um so, it does bring memories that

1:28 just round the corner that the Hartslivedand the Kennedysand there was several families thatlived round here that walked across theroad to the markets and then went andsold their wares on their barrows. Andtell me a bit about, for example, WinnieHart.>> Yes, she was a legend, you know, and theand the whole family were and they didhave severalbarrows on the bull ring, but you you'dnever ever meet those sort of people inthis day and age because they didn'ttakeumshe didn't take men lightly. You wouldthink, you know, she would have shaftyou like a member. She's a very veryvery good person. Lovely person. Is it

2:12 true she used to put pound notes intothe top of her stockings?>> Yeah, she used to have stockings thatdidn't go right up there and she used tofold them up and then put them all andyou can imagine at the end of the day itwas, you know, but that'swhat two or three of them did, you know,it was a a market thing in those days.And it is important that we we emphasizeit wasn't just a man's environment. Thiswas a woman's environment as well.>> much so and you know, there werethere was aa ladyum called Mosley. The the Mosley familylivedup the other end of the top end of theboring in a place called Lee's Lane.And they were, you know, the wholefamily had been there many years. And

2:56 they had a a very very good-lookingdaughter named Iris Mosley.Um and she used to come elegantlydressed and they used to queue up alldayum to buy her uh stuff. She was veryvery well-known. So, there were some umelegant people as well as>> a photo of Iris. She's got her hair upin a beehive. She's glamorous.>> Absolutely.Absolutely. She was a great friend, lovelovely and it's She's got two charmingdaughters who arewho actually died before she did. Onedied at 44.Then there was people you mentioned theKennedys. Johnny the Count Kennedy washe called?>> Yeah, there was several, you know, oneof them

3:40 died early, Jimmy Kennedy. He died veryearly on.Um Bobby Kennedy was a aa barrow boy but he went on to be abouncerat um nightclub on Hagley Road in hislater life, but Johnny Kennedyum the countsas you sayum went on to run football teamsafterwards, but he was very good at hisjob. Percy Moses, they used to call himWas it the pineapple king they used tocall him? Yeah, he used to sell fish aswell, he did. It was quite uhbut he was he was the father that youknow in in later life and they had quitea big family as well.daughterum

4:22 she married married a and changed hername Her name was Eustace.And and her son actuallyum is still alive, Barry Barry Eustaceuhvery verynice lad. What about the flower sellers,the Kelly sisters? Yeah, well, youobviously know as many stories as um asanybody about the both of them that thatthey wereyou know, rough and ready, but they theydid know their job, didn't they? Yeah,and they did work hard, very hard. Therewas the three sisters, wasn't there?Yeah, three of them and Katie lived inDigbeth over a shop.Yeah, on the mainuh street.Umand Mary had had a son called Billy

5:05 Sutton. He were a real character,weren't he, Billy Sutton?>> couldn't miss him.We've talked about the Harts, butthere's a couple ofmembers of the family that like LilyHart you wanted to mention. Yeah, Lilywas a character, a very very much so. Umand she was exceptionalat what she did. Really. Butshe hadher sons uh there are not many peoplefrom the burrows now that are alive.Um Johnny Hart's sisterSusan's alive. Umyou know, and the three three of theHarts that Harolduh Ronnieand

5:48 there was another one.There's well three of them. They arethey are all uhthey are all um alive and Harold's in innot unfortunately he's just lost the hiswife but they they're still alive butthere's not many people left you know,at at that old old the old boring show.It wouldn't be you know, too many thatremember would remember that sort ofera. Do you think there were morecharacters around the Bull Ring in themdays we're looking at the late 40s, 50s?In the Bull Ring now, you know, in onthe stalls now there's um it's a verydifferent environment. It's I went theother week and

6:30 there's a large amount of Somalians inthere and umyou know, a lot of ethnic people andthere wasn't really anyum old market people or normally wefamilies they carry on and carry on, youknow, with the barrow boys. They go backto the 1900s, you know what I mean?Their sons even my my own father hisfather did it, you know. And I supposein a way what's happening now is thatthe Bull Ring market is reflectBirmingham's changing population.Absolutely and and you know, markets ingeneralare on the on the downward trend becauseof

7:12 um so there was no supermarkets in daysgone by but and now people pull up, getwhat they want and go home, you know,where it's a a different thing, youknow. What about people like RobbiePrice? He was a gentlemanas you know.Um he he'sas you came down the old boring past thechurch, he was in Edgbaston Streetum right on the corner and hehe hadhalf of Edgbaston Street really but hewas he was notorious andin his heydayhe bought two Aston Martins.I think the guy's name was WilliamWilson who used to own Aston Martin.And they were good friends and he

7:57 he had Rob 1and Rob 2 on his two Aston Martins.And he bought Was it Four Foot Hall heate Four Foot Hall he lived, yeah,that's quite right. He he did.He did live there for>> many years. Didn't he have a nightclubin the Bull Ring as well?>> No, it wasn't in Bull Ring, it was inBradford Street.At the bottom of Bradford Street by themeat market. Yes.>> And it was called the Moat House. Yes.And he ran that for for many, manyyears. It was one of the firstnightclubs in Birmingham.>> You know, it was at theActually, I think the Cedar Club hadcome after that, didn't they? Yeah.Another character I meant to ask youabout was Frankie Ellis. Yeah,he actuallywhen my what

8:39 worked with my dad on the stalls. See,he he was never in the Bull Ring and heuhI don't know what I think in mymy mom, but he had my dad's stall whenmy dad passed.My mom'shad it probate with Frankie. And thenshe gave it to to to him and I've gotthe piece of paper where the Markets andFairs have agreed to give him Frankiethe stall and he umI would thinkbecause of the trouble nowwhere they're trying to throw everybodyout the indoor market, you know, he wason the committee and he did before hepassedhe he ran it with an iron fist, didn't

9:21 he? And they could do with him nowbecause they're going to shut that down,as you know. They've given another 12months or something, haven't they? Youknow, but they don't care about Marketsand Fairs. They want to have the moneyto build55 flats, that's all they want. Theycouldn't care less about, you know,the market people and people who havebeen doing it for a million years. TheyThey don't knowNo caring the world about it. Theyshould be showed up about it cuz I thinkit's awful. Frankie was a realstrong force for the markets. He had acafe for a long time, didn't he,afterwards in the old indoormarket. Uh I remember marching withFrankie and the traders back in the late

10:05 '90s when they were planning to demolishitthen.When you look at, say, Shrewsburymarket, Preston market, Leicestermarket, they're thriving. They are.But what they've done, if you thinkabout it,they moved themfrom up the top to down the bottom tothat and stuck them in a little corner.You You You You can't find You can'tpark There's no parking. How can theythrive? Leicester market fabulousparking. Fabulous big car park. Burnleymarket. They've never tried to help themarket people, only drive them out tobuild more, you know,the counselors. They don't care. And

10:50 when you when you think about it, whatyou said earlier on about the MidlandRed used to terminate right by themarkets.>> it in the top? There's hardly any busesterminate there now. Indeed, but wherethe police station is.>> Yes. Across the road from there wascalled theIt was the umsocial club for the Midland Red. Righton the corner there.>> Yes. And it was always, you know,thriving, you know, it was a differentway of life, you know. I remember in thelate '60s, '70s, '80s, charabancs usedto come from Wales and all over to themarkets.>> Absolutely. I shouldn't say that aboutall the counselors because there's acounselorcalled Paul Tilsley,a Liberal Democrat counselor who was an

11:34 absolute and he was also the Lord Mayor.An absolute gentleman.Gentleman.And he did a lot of work on the marketsand fairs committee. He he he he he hehe he he he he he he heUm he's like myself, he's quite old now.Umbut he was a good man. And I believehe's still on the council. He is, he'sstill doing good work and fighting.>> I I I I I I I I I I love me daily orbit.I was um one of his guests of honor whenhe was Lord Mayor.And I've got all the photos of him. Hewas a good man and worked for this town.Um and did a lot of work for the marketswhere a lot of the othersand he actually worked in the market.

12:18 He was a salesman in the in the marketand then he did the same as you.He went and he got himself a pre-HND andhe educated himself after school afterschool. After work.He's like that.Um after work and and anddid good things and really really was aneducated man. But never forgot where hecome from. No, absolute gentleman. Stilllives in the same house. Tell me aboutyour family, your dad, your granddad,your mom. You know, from eight years ofage I used to goto the boring on the bus with my dad andhelp him out on his barrow.And thenum when I was 13, I I got uh expelledfrom school from two schools. And then I

13:05 wentto work with him permanently at 13.In this day and age, I don't supposeyou'd get away with not going back toschool, but in those days I don't thinkyou know, if you weren't conforming, Ithink they'd be glad to get rid of you,which they obviously did because wenever hadany trouble, so that's really how Iremember the early days in in of theBarras before even moving intothe the the the market. So, you get 13,you leave the school. What what year wasthat roughly, John? Probably 5057 58. The Bull Ring's about to change,but it's still the Bull Ring of memory,the the Bull Ring that my mom and dad

13:47 and nan and grandad told me about. Yeah,absolutely. And you know, what peoplewould never remember, you know, in thoseday and night in those daysin Eggleston Street where Robbie Prykewas, at the end of the road was theMidland Red Bus Station. And that'swhere, you know, all all the people usedto come in those days, which not manypeople go on buses now, do they?Um and at the top of the Bull Ring theyhad the the Marquis Hall, which was acompletely different thing to theMarquis where they sold, you know, fishand the fish market was there. Theycalled it the the Marquis Hall wherethey had loads of different things, butit was um

14:30 it was all part of the market. So, youhad the indoor market. The roof wasblown off in the war, wasn't it?>> Absolutely.Yeah, I I don't I I obviously I don'tremember that. Umbutyou could you could see they'd put a anewroof on it and there was signs round theplace. And it was a magnificentclassical style building, wasn't it,with Greek style columns at the frontand the back?At the front of there, the Barras werethere, market was there, but at thefront of therethey used to have all that.Um several people sell out of suitcases.The guy who who owned the nightclub manyyears later, Alan Mannion. Yeah. You

15:13 know, Lenny Schmidt. Yeah. You know,Johnny Harty.He was one of the Hartys who used to doit as well. Billy Sutton. Billy Suttonused to used used to do it in the yard.They had a guy calledJimmy Poppet who was from London.And he used to sell the poppet beads Iused to put around there. Biggestcharacter this town's ever seen.>> Really? Oh, it was unbelievable. But itwas quite funny to see them selling outof their suitcases. Yeah.But it was umyou know, it's all all part and it wasall character.>> And we need to explain to younger peoplethat the Borough then wasthe market hall and then coming down tothe fish market, then Borough was and infront of there was all the Borough boys

15:57 and girls going down the street toJamaica Road.>> opposite to the to where the church andchurch is there.>> Yeah. And the the Boroughs went up thereevery morning.Umthe Borough boys needed a license, ahawker's license to sell on the stalls.And if you didn't, the police were veryvery stringent and they were reallywere.And theynot every morning, four mornings a week.Tuesday,Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.The police had identical badge numbersand they put them in a a sack in a placecalled the sorting yard which was ran by

16:41 where but just off Edgbaston Street.Can't remember the name of the street.And everybody congregatedthere and the police came.One, normally a sergeant.Sergeant Williams, one of those guys whowas known who was there quite a lot.Um and theyhold the bag up and some of you puttheir hand in and pull the numbers outand then you'd get number one pitchwhich was obviously the best one at thetop of the hill. And they draw the 30pitches out. And they pretty sure down.And there was alwaysfights where people are trying to get inand you know barrow boys.But the police were pretty hard and

17:25 there were there was more of them andthey were a lot rougher in those daysand they didn't stand for people messingabout. It's difficult for people todayto visualize that old buildingopposite St. Martin's going up the hillbecausegoing past up from Edgbaston Street upthe hill because now it's all part ofthat new center.>> when they did the new market in I think'64 or '65 wewe moved up the uhthe top but itit was a you know a really prominenthill. And John, again, just explain whatyou mean by a barrow boy. Well,it was completely different to a marketthe market that we all went to

18:09 afterwards where you had your stall andthat you know. I meaneverybody hada barrow.And there was only two peoplenobody owned them. They used to rentthem every week offKelly's and McDonald's they were called.And and they used to come round and havethe moneyevery week off everybody andumit was always fruit.You know, all the barrows were fruitsfruit and veg. Yeah. You know, nonethere was nothing else. You know, theit it even in my own familyumwith the barrow boysmy my dad's dadyou know, they were barrow boys from the

18:51 1900s.You know, so this obviously went on a along time didn't it? So we're looking ata handcart that you pushed. Yeah.Yeah, it just just abut that you see the barrows now I'vegot one at my homeand I've renovated it but with thebarrows that they used to put theproduce on.They were wider Right.>> than the other ones that the portersused to. Gotcha.>> Because they would have been no goodto set your produce out on. But take methroughwhat time you got up in the morning,what then happened when I was born withMom and Dad had moved to thethe Midway.

19:34 Butbefore that, my momwas born Fisherton Road in LiverpoolStreet.Um and my nan.Um and my dad was born in WalsallStreet.Just off Garrison Lane.Um so they were bothlocals to here and um I thinkindays before I was about, I thinkthis area and Liverpool Street was quitea notoriousarea. I think it was or heavy or whatwhatever you want to call it, you know,tough. Good word. It was different. Wewe we moved to the Midway.Andwe of a morningum we I can't remember now, but

20:19 we used to leave home, Dad and I, um toget the bus, you know, 4:00, quarter to4:00. But in those days we used to walkjust round the corner to WhittingtonOval.And it was the 15 bus so with the busterminus was there.And we used to get on the bus and itwould take us intouhinto town and weAnd also justfurther down, there was the 14 bus whichwent into town and it stopped in the OldSquare. So we'd we'd catch onewhichever it because Dad knew the timesand we'd go on the, you know, catch anearly one, but we It was quite funny

21:02 because in those days nobody had cars,you know. It's quite different to today.And that's when we had the late nightbus service in Birmingham. Absolutely.One route for the up for one district.But there was no cars. You know, that'sthey they needed them, didn't they? So,you're probably getting to town aboutquarter to five. About half four. Halffour. Normally normally half four. Justa little bit little bit after.>> And then what you coming going totraipse down towards the You going toSmith that down by where the church wasagain?>> Yes. Just the old Smithfield market.Which I have I should think that was18th century. Yeah. Unbelievable oldplace that was. Um Andyou you would go around to the different

21:45 places to see what's umwhat you you know, what you could buy.It was quite interesting really.And you decide your dad would decidewhat he was going to get that day.Absolutely. You know, what what hethought was cheap and whatever and heyou know, I was very luckyhavinga mentor likemy father because he was a hard workingman and he was a tremendousbuyer. Was he? Yeah, tremendous. Umand alsothe ones from round here that the Hartsused to get up in the morning and theKennedys and they were good buyers. Theywere always on time as well. So,Smithfield was the old wholesale market,wasn't it?

22:27 >> Absolutely. And that's where they knowI've got to have that big regeneration.Absolutely.>> site. Actuallythe old market was further up in JamaicaRoad.>> Yes. Where where that St. Martin's pubwas. Yes. But the market afterwards wasfurther down. The one now that they'regoing to have the regeneration. So, yourdad's picking his stuff. Then do the theporters pull it up the hill for you?What they used to call it was flashingup. You know, you'd flash it up, make ityour pitch look as nice as you could youcould, you know what I mean?>> How would you do that, John? But youpull all the best onesat the make them look as as nice as youcould before the people start comingout, you know.But people in those days did used to

23:11 come about earlier than they than theydo today becauseUm and as I do today, I mean II don't know, but I went to the marketseveral times to lookaround there and there's nobody about,but in those days, you know, half seventhat there were people about and youknow, you could take money if you wereYou know, a lot of people didn't get upat that time, but the the half dozen orthe dozen that they used to take money.And were the goods laid out flat or didyou have them on a>> It was either, wasn't it? You know, andand what they used to do, they used toextend and put boxes at the end and putproduce on that, you know. So, you would

23:54 pinch as much space as you could and youcould have somebody on the end sellinga different article to what you wereselling there, you know, have celery orsomething, you know what I mean, on theend. So, would your dad have that inmind when he was buying it, who wasgoing to be next to him? Yeah. And thethe things they used to haveat the end of the stall and probablyhave a younger person such as myself,you know, with cucumbers or somethingthat didn't need weighing on the scalethat you could just put intotheir bags. So, they always,you know, pineapples you didn't have toweigh them, you>> Yeah. Yeah, so that was a unit on theirown.>> Yeah. Was it important to havea voice to be shouting out?

24:38 >> That's what the market was in thosedays, wasn't it? You know.And they used to call it in in slang,they used to call it routing, you know.So, they used to, you know,call all the big mouth ones routers, youknow. But butin in those days, it's umit was what everybody did. You know, inthis this day and age, I don't supposeyou ever heard it in the market, youknow. Back slang was used a lot as well,wasn't it?>> Very much so. It was just words back tofront for back, cake uh front on front,you know, all those words. When theydon't want people to know what they'resaying, that's and it and it was quiteeasy to pick up. I don't suppose anybodyuses it now, do they? I remember we used

25:22 it a bit in the book making years ago.So, five to four would be roof. Yeah,and then and and all the numbers, youknow, roof, you know, five, four,uh three. Yeah, out for two. Mhm. Itwasn't only a center forshopping. It was an entertainmentcenter, wasn't it, the Bull Ring? Yeah,I meanit the old marketsthe old barrow boy when the barrow boyswere there was different. And alsoI I saw an article that that you you didsome time agoabout um a guy called Johnny Cairo. Yes.And Johnny Cairo was ain those days you didn't see all these

26:05 bodybuilders and whatever, but he had asix pack and he was a big tough guy. Buthe actually used to swallow a chainandkeep the the one end there. He used toswallow and it was down and you goyou know,in this day and age you go you'rejoking, but it wasn't that's what heused to do and you go around with a canand whatever and then he'd let them pullthe chain back. It was unbelievable andthen they tied him up. Yeah. And putlocks Yeah.>> on this thing.And have his arms like that and he'd gethe'd get a I don't know call themescapologists or something. In this dayand age I don't know.But he'd get out of it. You could tiehim up how you like, he'd get out of it.

26:48 And was this going on at the same timeas>> Well, they were that were one side ofthe street or or we and my father andpeople at that side of street. But inthe middle, there was a store that soldflowers, one that sold eggs. Butand they there were there was preachersalways preaching God and the end of thedays coming andumand they the police used to stand forthem.UmBut that there was a times when they hadthe eschatologist, you know, he was somany times a week. And he did used to dookay. He'd go around with the money Imean we didn't get nothing now, wouldyou in this day and age? Butyou couldn't imagine

27:31 talking to people now where a man isputting a chain down his stomach. Yougo, "I'd kill him, you know." I'd talkto the preachers. Do you remember JimmyJesus? I do remember remember him, but Ididn't have much to do with them. He wassupposed to come from a posh family inSolihull and used to shout out femalelambs.>> him, but I don't know where where hecome from. I mean I'd be lying if I if Isaid it was all lady with the carrierbag. She was a a nightmare.If you drewthe pitch by her, she had the samestall, the same suitand she used to sit at the end of aparticular barrow which I can'tremember, but it was 2/3up. So, he's a b-

28:15 number eight, nine, 10 barrow. And ifyou drew thatall day long she was shouting all daylong.And he used to drive them mad. You know,you can imagine the barrow boys. Theyused to go absolutely mad. And if theydrew the picture of a morning, they usedto go, you know.It was one of them that's the gospeltruth. And what was an Andy carrier? AnAndy carrier's like a plastic bagreally, but it was it had two handles onand a browna brown bag. And then to be fair, sheused to do okay cuzpeople used to buy them, you know what Imean? And And there were other lots ofdifferent characters around. Were thereany political characters? Yeah, but but

29:00 but not so much. Even if you think back,the elections and whatever weren't thesame as they are now, were they? Youknow what I mean? And a lot of peopledidn't even know who was in the councilor who their MP was. Tell me a bit moreabout your dad. What was his name andhis own background?Alfred White, but they Everybody calledhim Chalky. And heearly on in his life he did umbefore he went to he did he did quite along time in the army and he was aphysical training instructor in thearmy. A very fit man.Umand he obviously went because his fatherwas a a barrow boy and he That's how wecame

29:42 into uhyou know,into doing it. Butwhen I said to you, you know,his dadwas born in Woolwich and my mom, youknow, that's how they It's all cometogether. It was normally all familyLiving close to each otherYou couldn't get somebody that normallycameand being a mystery and get a hawker'slicense. You know what you know what Imean? I wouldn't have got a hawker'slicense if I hadn't have beenmy father's son.>> You didn't know your granddad?No, never met him, no.You mentioned you went to a Catholicschool. Were Was your granddad or yourgranny of Irish descent?>> My granddad wasuh Irish. Umand the the the the one I didn't um say

30:26 that. And I think that was a lot to dowiththe Catholic part of our our our familyor probably was becausemy nan was really a seriousreligious lady, very serious. You know.The three day a week thing, she went tochurch and, you know.Down here was the most famous one, St.Michael's.>> Yes. Church, wasn't it? It was. I usedto box when I was young, and we used tohave all theboxing at St. Michael's school. It was,you know, it was normally the Irishschools that did the umthe boxing. Apart from Upper ThomasStreet. Well, there there were others.There were, you know. And and and in in

31:09 those days all the car factoriesuh you mentioned JohnnyPrescot, he he boxed at Wol- WolseleyBreedon's, you you know.I boxed for the Morris Commercial.>> And I I I did by Southall's, wasn't it,Danny? Yeah. Um The Met. Wolseley. Yeah.You know. They all had Longbridge, theyWhat do they call the one in Longbridge?Was it the Austin? The AustinLongbridge, yeah. They were all In thisday and age, it would be a very goodideaif there were loads of boxing schoolsbecause the young people of todayit's certainlyyou know, got a lot of people on the onthe right track.I just

31:51 Yeah. I'm not preaching for anybody, butI'm just saying I think it was a goodthing for my type of person.Tell me a little bit about your mom.What was her name and what you rememberof her? In the early days, she didn't goto the boxing. She looked after us, butlaterum she went she was all every day withhim, but um she was a staunch Catholicas well. And And what was her maidenname, John? Summers.Summers, butthat would bethe granddad I told you about who livedjust round here I didn't meet. His namewould be Summers. Right. Peter Summers,yeah. I wonder if he was Irish descent

32:33 as well. He definitely was. He heabsolutely definitely was. So, you'vegot that on both sides. Yeah. Theyprobably came over during the GreatFamine or just afterwards. So, nowyou mentioned earlier on that you go tothe Catholic schools. Can I ask youaboutwhy school didn't seem to suit you?Um well, I didn't alwaysparticularly bad, but umthey didn't seem to like me, I don'tthink. Um and I didenjoyworking.You know, I I loved goingeven in the cold. I used to love goingwith my dad and going on the bus to theyou know, it was it was great. And and

33:17 the characters and the people you get toknow. It was another another world, youknow, better than school. Tell us a bitmore about the boxing. How did that comeabout? Because you went on to have agood career as an amateur, didn't you?Yeah, I did you know, okay. As aschoolboy, I boxed for England. Um andit was aalso we talked about it some time ago.Um it was lovely for me because they allthe Barrow boys went on boxed.Um they come in a big van. They putwooden you know, boxes in the back ofthe van. And they'd all come and andwatch me. It was really really lovelyand you feel part of it. I went to

34:00 Ireland to box for England as aschoolboy and it was unbelievable, youknow, my dad asked to buy me all a coatand a you know, my best best trousers.Bet they were proud of you. Well, maybemaybe. Yeah, well, I know I know my mymom was. Yeah. They didn't say a lotthough about pride in them days. It wasmore they showed their love by what theydid for you, didn't they?Well, when I was very young and I wasboxing atand I said she's by Southall's,you know, I'm by solely.Um, and when you're very young, it stillwasn't the, you know, this would be avery rough area and he always used tocometo watch me trying and then take me homeand you know, they were very, very

34:45 you know,good people. In them days, people didn'tshow their emotions by hugging like wemight do today, but they showed theirlove by doing things for you. Yeah,absolutely.And then and in those days at theboxing,you you get the odd medal and and I'vegotsome and I've still got an an Englandyou know, uh,vest. Yeah. Um, but what hedid for you,um,it gives you it it it it gives you aresist to to really get on for them, youknow what I mean? Andwith the prizes were normally householdgoods.

35:28 You know what I mean? It wasn't itwasn'tum, cuz they couldn't give you money orwhat whatever cuz you were amateurs, youknow what I mean?Um, and you used to get blankets andwhatever and it was so lovely to go hometo my mom cuz we weren't rich, you know,we're only a poor family. Um, but it waslovely to go home and give your momsomething, you know what I mean? It'snice. And what weight were you boxingat?You you you can't say middleweight,lightweight or 7 stone 7 I was. Yeah.Yeah, that's what I did.Well, I 7 stone I won the championshipsdown here.Um, that's what Michael calls it,Birmingham championship then theMidlands championship at 7 stone 7.Were you tempted to go pro? Not at all.

36:12 My best friend was Johnny Prescott asyou know.Um, and he turned to be evenwhen he left William Henry straight hecame and lived with my mom for, youknow, my my mom for about 12 months. Hewas aButI used to ummore doing what I was doing and thendoing what he was doing. And rememberin 1965,he fought at Birmingham City ground,didn't he?You know, he was big time, but he neverever got a fortune, God bless him. AndJohnny Prescott went to Upper ThomasStreet School. He did. Very very toughboxer, wasn't he?Very very. Lovely man. He fought BillyWalker as well, didn't he? Twice. Twice.

36:56 Yeah. Was that at the Blues ground aswell?>> There's only ever been one fight at theBirmingham City ground, and that was thefight. There's never been any more. Howdid you become pals with JohnnyPrescott? Birmingham City.Watching Birmingham City.Um a pal of mineWally Chapman, who's dead, was a barrowboy.We went to the Blues ground one day, andI they were there, and I went and satwith them. And from that daywe were friends forever.Tell me a bit about him. It was a shame,really, because he didn't get the moneybecause in those daysnot being rude to his manager, but theydidn'tum do the doors like, you know, the

37:38 Eddie Hearns and that today. You know,if you got one of them, you're made forlife, aren't you?>> Yes. He was a playboy, and he wasprobably thethe best-looking boxer. When he trainedin Manchester, he got very very friendlywith George Best and and Mike Summerbee.Although they played for differentclubs, they opened a boutiquein Manchester together.Uh which me and John went to the openingof umAnd what people wouldn't believeum isthatJohn, because once he trained, he gotnothing to do. He used to come down theboring, and he'd be on on my stall, and

38:22 it was like you knowthat's for better words say big timeCharlie on on the enemy stall you knowhelping out some people go oh my god youknow cuz he wasthe most famous person in Birmingham atthat time you know what I mean wasn'the? Well I remembergoing intokind of partnership withCutler for Cutler Prescott the bettingshops.>> Bill Cutler yeah. We went to Hawaiito Mallorca and a lot of people knowabout this Bobby Thompson who played forBirmingham>> Yes. Mike Summerbee George Best John andmyself and we had a fracas in a a barand we all spent four days in jail in

39:04 Mallorca.And the only person to get out after oneday was George.And before he before he wenthe came in to see us and they'd give hima bottle of San Miguel and there he weredrinking his San Miguel and saying I'msorry to leave you lads there's nothingI can do. That's what George did. He gothe got he got out and we had to stay inthat ladywho I've told you about Winnie Hartand Johnny Hart had aa place in Mallorca.She come and paid the fine and got usall out I didn't got no money with usyou know what I mean. She paid the fineand got us out and we paid her when wecame back.>> I wouldn't have liked to been the peoplethat you had the fracas with.

39:48 It's quite it's quite a funny ending.Quite a funny ending. That's all I'vegot to get out of you about that isn'tit? It was interesting that's all I'llsay. Enough said. How long did you havethe stall for and then then tell meabout how it changed when the oldbullring was destroyed and then the the1960s bullring came about? They done alot of work on it and then they moved usupthere weI'mI'm sure it was 64 65 wasn't itthere abouts and the same thing it wasmore, you know, they were drawing forthe pitches but it was your pitchpermanently. My dad did all right he gotone in thehe got a scupper right in the middle sowe we we were okay. And these were

40:31 proper stalls now, were they?>> Proper stalls, yeah. You got your ownstall with a roof on and you know.Which was obviously more civilized thanbeing with a barrow with a tarpaulinover the top, you know what I mean? Tostop the rain and the snow.>> Yeah, absolutely. Did you continue inthe game? What did you do then? I didcontinue where the hippodromewas in Hurst Street.Um and the Fox pub.Um we had or dad hadawarehouse and a warehouse it was like alittle yard with alittle thing shed on the front of it.Um but it was quite a big piece of land.And

41:14 there was uma firm in in the market that went intoliquidation.And the man dealing with the liquidationwas a friend of my brother's.And we bought we had all the vansand the cars and it was only about 12.So we cleared the front of the pitch andput them all on thefront of the pitch.And it was unbelievable we sold them inno time.So from therewe then started to sell cars.From there we movedthe warehouse backand eventuallywe had to get dad another warehouse

41:58 somewhere else cuz um my brother waswith meuh then.And umwe obviously, you know, in the course oftime we went tothe auctions and that and um and that'show we we bought her it was quite ait was quite quickly as well. We didwell quickly. Unexpectedly as well,really.>> Absolutely. I don't really know why wewhy we bought him in the first place. Ithinkthe man wants him on brother cuz they'relike great friends. Andand we we we just tried to sell him andthen paid him as we as we were sellinghim. And this pitch would be right bywhere the National Trust Museum is. Youknow, we had that it was join motors for

42:40 quite a long time.>> Yes. And there was a big kitchen placecalled Val Products. V A L Products.When they shut the weekend we used touse their car parks put more cars on andyou know, it was quite ait was quite funny and it was quite busyin Hurst Street in those days, you know.So this is an unexpected turn. You'removing away from the boring now tobecoming a car dealer. Yeah, but I I Istill kept my pitches for some time.>> Did you? And got up early in the morningand put somebody on the pitch anddid the cars. You know, went round tothe the the carslike Shrewsbury. It was a lot differentand it was really more lucrative. Youknow, so I didn't stay in the market,you know, too much. So we're looking now

43:25 late 60s. Probably 69 70.>> And because you were doing so well, youmove away from the Hippodrome. Is thatwhen you took over the big pitch atSpring Hill?>> Yeah. Yeah, we we we kept the two tostart with. But then the other one was avery big place so we we you knowum we moved everything to there whichwas a good idea to be fair. I want toask you a question if you knew a blokecalled Larry Farrington. Very much so,yeah. Larry Farrington grew up with ourdad. He had a car pitch Freddy Fewtrellon the corner of the Lady Pool Road andStratford Road.>> He also had one in those I had him forhim as well. He was a he was a goodpunter of ours, Larry, and a realcharacter. He played football for thecity of the club. He was quite a decent

44:08 footballer. And he was good pals withEddie Futch, wasn't he? Well, he workedhe worked with him in the end on carsand Well, he worked at the club firstand then he got the car business withhim, yeah. There'slots of overlapswith my family's background asbookmakers, although we didn't go up thebull ring cuz we were working on aon a Saturday, but the kind ofcharactersthere's an overlap, isn't there?Well, you know, I was talking to JohnnySizzler and you know, they are relatedto the Broadhurstwho are also a very good Birminghamfamily.Umandyou know, they were obviouslyintermarried cuz they were cousins. Andand you're right, you know, they never

44:53 worked in the market, but they werealways coming down and you know, so itwas all everybody used to intermingle inthose days. From the cars, you movedinto property and to other businessventures.You've become a very successfulbusinessman. Who would have thought itgoing back to that kid that was expelledfrom school at 13?I don't think you can get away with ittoday because of computers and, youknow,umand what you need, but, you know, I justthink you have been a bit street wise inthose days. It helped.Um I suppose it still helps today aswell, doesn't it?But it did help moreum in those days, I I would thinkanyway.

45:35 Because when youyou know, you get on and you do got yourown finance companies,you got to work hard. So, it's allregisteredoffice. So, it was wasn't easy ride,wasn't easy ride. And that groundedusing yourheadquickly working out from like your dad,this is good value. Now, we can sell itfor this, we can do that. That's kind ofhave a big impact on you. The same withcars and things like that and mentalarithmetic is very important and if youare good at it. And even today, Iinstance with my grandson the other weekwhere umwent to Bristol University and he's got

46:18 ahonors in this and honors in that. Iknow you're very well educated and andI'm proud of you for it. Thank you.>> But mental arithmetic, hopeless.But then again, there's no figures isthere?It's numbers andfrightening to look at. And I'm thesame. I I failed my math O level, butyou ask me mental arithmetic, I was abookie. Well, you've got to add upmentally. Yeah. You know, even thoughwe're getting the prices from thecourse, we're off-course bookies, butyou've got to work out what's that goingto cost us if that one comes in. Whathave we got running on this? We've got aa treble, two of them have won. How muchare we going to lose if the third oneloses? Let me ask you a questionquestion then. Of course.>> You um you went on tohigher education. You You got a PhD.

47:03 Yeah. Is you really lucky?>> Yeah. I'm so proud of you. Oh, thankyou, John. That's brilliant. Thank you.Absolutely. What I'm chuffed about isI know I left school at 12 basically tomind the babies. She was the oldestwench at 12. Our wench, as we used tosay, Mhm. the oldest daughter. Dad leftschool just before his 14th birthday towork in the betting shops. Mom leftschool at 15. Both backstreet kids. Oneof umPriskett'sjokes Yeah. about me when we were onwhen we were out and because we didin those days, um we were very verylucky and I was lucky because he was sogood looking. And we did, you know, umgo out with quite a lot of uh young

47:47 ladies, you know, in those days and itwas far easier having him on your backto help you. Um then but he used to dineout on the uh you know, the no educationthing with me. And he used to sayumhe was terrible at geography. He used tothink Thailand was on the third floor atTowers. And you know, silly thingslike that, but he always used to try andbring it into context. Very good. Talkit up, ladies. Can I ask you about yourlate wife? Shirley Ann was andsheyou would and a lot of people wouldremember.I met her in the Bull Ring.And

48:30 she had the children's roundabout in theBull Ring. Yeah. She had it for manyyears untilwe we sold it on.Um but her father hadhad them in other towns. He had theroundabouts in Coventry and>> All right. you know, and then when wegot married he gave upthat one to Shirley. So,you know, my wife was part of the BullRing as well. Everybodyknew my wife, you know, so the wholefamilyhave gotumBirmingham groundings. What was hermaiden name? Statham.Yeah, and that's what was on the Iremember. So, tell me about the firsttime that you you saw her. Well,

49:14 umshe was very very quiet.Um and it was a very long timebefore Iummanaged to get her to come and have acoffee. You you know what I mean? And itwas a long time before I wasI I I uhgot to to take her out because she usedto they lived in Coventry.So, she used to travel from Birminghamto Coventryevery every day. It wasn't as though youcouldgo home and then take her out sort ofthing cuz she'd go home and and getchanged. So, it was a bit uh it was aa different situation for me anyway, youknow what I mean?

49:56 And in those those days, obviouslyat that time I I'd got a car then, youknow, which was a little bit easier, youknow. How important was thatrelationship between you and Sherry?Very very important because I don'tto beanything in life or anything inbusiness, you need a partner that's withyou, you know what I mean? That doesn'tfight against you. And being a workall the hours God sent, it does helpto have somebody when you need somebodyto talk to.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> Very much so. Looking back on your lifenow, John.What do you think you've learned? Whatwould you do different or would you dothe same? Probably do the same.I do miss cars.

50:40 Very much so.The day-to-daycamaraderie. I do miss that Yeah.desperately. The market was cold.You used to go inside.>> Yeah, personally,my age I don't think I'd take it now.Any advice looking back on your life?I've been um and as you know, Ievennow I I get up very early in themorning, but I go to bed early.And I I I built myself a little gym athome and I try and train every morning,but at least six mornings I try and Itry most every morning. And and I I'venever had a drink as you know.I don't drink, so I don't think umnot saying to everybody don't drink, but

51:24 I'm just saying I think early morningsand and you know, getting your headright before you go to work and whateverdoes help.That's my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong.Well, can I thank you for joining me forthis chat? I've learned so much fromyou. I'd like to say thank you to youand tobring you to the fore all thosecharacters of the past, the Harts, theKennedys, the Kellys and many more. Andfrom one Brumy to another,thanks, John.Thank you.